Hi,
I have a curious tale:
Once there was a tank, where the water was perfect (according to Mr Test Tube), and clown loaches played happily among the tall grass. They lived with Guppies, Mollies, Tetras and other (not so gorgeous) fish. One day the Guppies began to become ill. Their beautiful fins that decorated their otherwise dull personas began to vanish. Quickly they perished. So God (in the form of MOI) decided to summon all her powers and restore harmony once again to the world. She took in her hands a thunderbolt of disease treatment (by Interpet no eight), disguised in some declorinated water and restored equilibrium once again. So god sat back, and looked happily at her work. Then, suddenly, DISASTER!!!! The clown loaches (and their comrades the zebra loaches) began to die. They stood still, They couldn't move, they flapped their little fins to no avail. They twisted round and round, becoming cought up in the currents and winds that blew from the east. And finally... they were no more.
So God decided not to buy some more clown loaches, but watched her flock closely. Harmony returned again, for a while, and the remaining loaches were happy again. But there was more disaster afoot... Fish became ill, like a plague it spread through the tank. So God decided to intervene again. Again, she took her disease treatment... and again the loaches suffered. This time God decided there was only one way forward --- she took the little clownies and placed them in heaven ... other pastures and bowls they now dwell, happy as larry, frolicking among the reeds.
So the moral of the story is... Well, there isn't one ---- what is going on??? does anyone know why my clownies get so sick with such bizarre symptoms. So suddenly and apparently in connection with new water/disease treatments??
Help!
God and the Clown Loach...
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
-
Mark in Vancouver
- Posts: 14252
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:41 pm
- Location: British Columbia
Reply
Hi,
Sorry, I have been having this problem for a while but noone seems to be able to identify it yet - I thought I would make the task of writing it a bit more entertaining, I realise it was not very informative.
The tank is 80l with internal heater, (quite strong) water pump, air stone, CO2 kit, foam and bio balls. The water chemistry on the test kit is:
0-1mg nitrite, 12mg nitrate, 1mg Ammonia (the same as my tap water), 7.50-8ph. The water is pretty hard in my area but i haven't done a test. Use dechlorinator and cold tap water (never use hot water tank, heat it in the kettle instead).
Change 30% water every week.
There are
5 loaches (1 yoyo, 1 zebra, 1 chain, 2 clown)
2 mollies
3 guppies
6 cardinal tetra
2 shrimps
2 giant danio
Tanks been running now for about 8-9 months.
Water chemistry has been the same for over 6 months now, and showed no change when I tested it last time (on the last occassion of the strange loach illness).
This has happened on a few occasions now and the water chemistry test never shows any difference. No one else in the tank seems to have the any symptoms when the loaches are unwell, although a few fish have died suddenly sporadically, since I have had the tank (one minute they are alive, swimming around fine, the next they are dead, this seems to occur in 'waves'). From the best of my knowledge one of the fish had TB as it showed a bent spine and sat on the bottom not able to swim unless it tried really hard. I was doing the fin rot treatment as the guppies were showing very sudden finrot (within a couple of days they went from full tails to none at all, one died).
The loaches symptoms are:
become lethargic and hide. loose co-ordination and ability to stay upright. loose ability to swim (get caught in the current and in vegetation - just lying there). finally die. (one also became distressed and it's eyes moved about a lot, it seemed to be spasaming). This has occured on four occasions now, with a couple of months inbetween each time.
The clown loaches became ill the second I added the finrot treatment, so I am not sure if it can be an affect on the bio-filter, as surely this would take at least a few hours/days? Would you also expect other fish to be affected?
The clown loaches do seem a bit skinny. There colouring has been fine most of the time I got them.
Treatments over the last 6 months have been (not sure if spelt correctly ) - interpet for internal bacteria, octozin (whitespot), myaxazin (finrot), interpet no eight (finrot).
There is one thing worth mentioning though - when I put the finrot treatment in, the bubbles comming out of the airstone seemed to change. They went very fine, and hang in the water for longer - seemingly not dissolving..I have never seen them like that before.
I think I might have a few too many loaches, but the fish shop didn't tell me this when I bought them and I don't have enough money yet to buy a really big tank for them (I am planning to in 3/4months).
Thanks
Kathryn
Sorry, I have been having this problem for a while but noone seems to be able to identify it yet - I thought I would make the task of writing it a bit more entertaining, I realise it was not very informative.
The tank is 80l with internal heater, (quite strong) water pump, air stone, CO2 kit, foam and bio balls. The water chemistry on the test kit is:
0-1mg nitrite, 12mg nitrate, 1mg Ammonia (the same as my tap water), 7.50-8ph. The water is pretty hard in my area but i haven't done a test. Use dechlorinator and cold tap water (never use hot water tank, heat it in the kettle instead).
Change 30% water every week.
There are
5 loaches (1 yoyo, 1 zebra, 1 chain, 2 clown)
2 mollies
3 guppies
6 cardinal tetra
2 shrimps
2 giant danio
Tanks been running now for about 8-9 months.
Water chemistry has been the same for over 6 months now, and showed no change when I tested it last time (on the last occassion of the strange loach illness).
This has happened on a few occasions now and the water chemistry test never shows any difference. No one else in the tank seems to have the any symptoms when the loaches are unwell, although a few fish have died suddenly sporadically, since I have had the tank (one minute they are alive, swimming around fine, the next they are dead, this seems to occur in 'waves'). From the best of my knowledge one of the fish had TB as it showed a bent spine and sat on the bottom not able to swim unless it tried really hard. I was doing the fin rot treatment as the guppies were showing very sudden finrot (within a couple of days they went from full tails to none at all, one died).
The loaches symptoms are:
become lethargic and hide. loose co-ordination and ability to stay upright. loose ability to swim (get caught in the current and in vegetation - just lying there). finally die. (one also became distressed and it's eyes moved about a lot, it seemed to be spasaming). This has occured on four occasions now, with a couple of months inbetween each time.
The clown loaches became ill the second I added the finrot treatment, so I am not sure if it can be an affect on the bio-filter, as surely this would take at least a few hours/days? Would you also expect other fish to be affected?
The clown loaches do seem a bit skinny. There colouring has been fine most of the time I got them.
Treatments over the last 6 months have been (not sure if spelt correctly ) - interpet for internal bacteria, octozin (whitespot), myaxazin (finrot), interpet no eight (finrot).
There is one thing worth mentioning though - when I put the finrot treatment in, the bubbles comming out of the airstone seemed to change. They went very fine, and hang in the water for longer - seemingly not dissolving..I have never seen them like that before.
I think I might have a few too many loaches, but the fish shop didn't tell me this when I bought them and I don't have enough money yet to buy a really big tank for them (I am planning to in 3/4months).
Thanks
Kathryn
-
Gary Herring
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:53 am
- Location: Swindon, England
I'm certain that poor water quality is causing all your problems.
If your tapwater ammonia really is that high, then you need to treat it with a dechloriminater rather than a standard dechlorinater - or a product like ammo-lock. But even if chlorimines are used by your water company, a 1mg/l tapwater ammonia reading seems frighteningly high, and even then how do you account for the nitrIte reading? It sounds very likely that one (or all) of the meds you've used have distroyed your bio-filter - and with ammonia and nitrite readings that high, its no wonder that the loaches did'nt make it. Loaches are highly sensitive to these pollutants and the levels should always be zero.
IMO, alot of fishkeepers are far to quick to chuck all sorts of meds and potions into their tanks without realising that often, they are causing far more problems than they are ever likely to solve, and in any case 99% of disease outbreaks can be prevented by quarentining new stock and maintaining good water quality.
If your tapwater ammonia really is that high, then you need to treat it with a dechloriminater rather than a standard dechlorinater - or a product like ammo-lock. But even if chlorimines are used by your water company, a 1mg/l tapwater ammonia reading seems frighteningly high, and even then how do you account for the nitrIte reading? It sounds very likely that one (or all) of the meds you've used have distroyed your bio-filter - and with ammonia and nitrite readings that high, its no wonder that the loaches did'nt make it. Loaches are highly sensitive to these pollutants and the levels should always be zero.
IMO, alot of fishkeepers are far to quick to chuck all sorts of meds and potions into their tanks without realising that often, they are causing far more problems than they are ever likely to solve, and in any case 99% of disease outbreaks can be prevented by quarentining new stock and maintaining good water quality.
Last edited by Gary Herring on Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Water Chemistry
Yes, I think that would explain the recovery of the clown loaches on the last occasion when I moved them to another tank. The new tank had never had a single disease treatment in it, and the bio filtration was probably never upset. I have called the water company about the chloramines, because either I am reading the tests upside down or something strange is afoot. The nitrates in the tap water are also high - 7mg, but I haven't tested the nitrites in the tap water.
Thank you for your advice, I will hold off on the disease treatments and let nature take it's course for a bit. Is it possible I am overloading the tank? How can I help to restore the bio-filter? Is it possible that my tap water may be highly chlorinated, and that is killing the filter?
Thanks again,
Kathryn
Thank you for your advice, I will hold off on the disease treatments and let nature take it's course for a bit. Is it possible I am overloading the tank? How can I help to restore the bio-filter? Is it possible that my tap water may be highly chlorinated, and that is killing the filter?
Thanks again,
Kathryn
Tap water
Apparently there are no chloramines, the water company is sending me a full analysis. Another thought is that as the shrimps have been fine all the way through and the nitrates have never got higher than 12mg on the test since I got the tank. Could it be the frequent water changes that are keeping the nitrates low, but nitrites/ammonia stay high due to the immature filter?
Kathryn
Kathryn
Last edited by Kat on Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
You said you've had the tank up for 8 months and have been getting ammonia and nitrite readings all along? These numbers should both be 0. I have never heard them measured in mg before, only in ppm. Are you sure your test is reflecting mg? Or is it ppm? Either way, unless you are getting 0, there is a problem with the nitrogen cycle in your tank. The ammonia should be converted to nitrIte and nitrIte to nitrAte before you can even notice a reading in the tank.
I also have ammonia in my water and my loaches don't seem to be affected by it. If your tank is 8 months old it should be cycled by now so it is very strange that you keep getting ammonia and nitrite readings, and indicates a problem, so we need to figure out why that's not getting cycled out of there. Here are a couple of things to think about...
When you set up the tank, did you cycle it before adding fish? There is a chance that what has happened is you didn't cycle so the fish got sick, and you medicated, which inhibited the cycle, and then more sickness, more medication, and things have still after 8 months things are not settled. Unbelievable that it could really be dragged on that long, but I suppose it could be possible.
When you do your water changes, are you careful to only rinse the filter media in old tank water and not tap water? Tap water could kill off the bacteria that live there and cause the kinds of problems you are describing.
Another thing, are you very careful to use seperate cleaning materials on your tank? Do you use your bucket for mopping floors or anything else other than the fish tank? Do you ever clean anything you use on your ank with harsh cleansers? Do you use glass cleaner on the front of your tank? Any kind of chemical contamination can kill off your filter bacteria and your fish as well. Keep all of these things far away from your tank.
You may already know all of this so please don't be offended if you do, but they are issues that could cause the kinds of problems you are having. I agree with Gary, it is probable that they are dying because of poor water quality and it is important to figure out what is causing the tank to be so imbalanced. Weekly 30% changes should be enough to keep them alive even being so overstocked. If I were you, I'd return at least the clown loaches to the pet store if possible. That tank is far too small for them. You can get replacements when you get a larger tank, something around 75 US gallons (284 litres).
EDIT: Sorry, I missed your last two posts, Kat, because I got interrupted while I was typing this reply. My poor daugher is sick and needed some attention.
I also have ammonia in my water and my loaches don't seem to be affected by it. If your tank is 8 months old it should be cycled by now so it is very strange that you keep getting ammonia and nitrite readings, and indicates a problem, so we need to figure out why that's not getting cycled out of there. Here are a couple of things to think about...
When you set up the tank, did you cycle it before adding fish? There is a chance that what has happened is you didn't cycle so the fish got sick, and you medicated, which inhibited the cycle, and then more sickness, more medication, and things have still after 8 months things are not settled. Unbelievable that it could really be dragged on that long, but I suppose it could be possible.
When you do your water changes, are you careful to only rinse the filter media in old tank water and not tap water? Tap water could kill off the bacteria that live there and cause the kinds of problems you are describing.
Another thing, are you very careful to use seperate cleaning materials on your tank? Do you use your bucket for mopping floors or anything else other than the fish tank? Do you ever clean anything you use on your ank with harsh cleansers? Do you use glass cleaner on the front of your tank? Any kind of chemical contamination can kill off your filter bacteria and your fish as well. Keep all of these things far away from your tank.
You may already know all of this so please don't be offended if you do, but they are issues that could cause the kinds of problems you are having. I agree with Gary, it is probable that they are dying because of poor water quality and it is important to figure out what is causing the tank to be so imbalanced. Weekly 30% changes should be enough to keep them alive even being so overstocked. If I were you, I'd return at least the clown loaches to the pet store if possible. That tank is far too small for them. You can get replacements when you get a larger tank, something around 75 US gallons (284 litres).
EDIT: Sorry, I missed your last two posts, Kat, because I got interrupted while I was typing this reply. My poor daugher is sick and needed some attention.
-
Gary Herring
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:53 am
- Location: Swindon, England
Yes you proably are a little overstocked, and you will certainly need a bigger tank to house the clowns as they grow bigger. However, in a tank thats been running 9 months, if you've got decent filtration then i doubt overloading alone would cause the high levels of ammonia and nitrite - unless of course you added alot of fish at the same time.
Get the ammonia and nitrites down by changing 25% of the water daily for as long as you still have a reading, obviously making sure that the water is treated with a dechloriminator before you add it to the tank. Just have a look on the dechlorinator bottle and it will say if it deals with chlorimines too - and if it does'nt, then buy another one that does. Go easy on feeding too - only feed sparingly every other day for as long as you can detect ammonia and nitrite. This will help while your filter bacteria colony is growing, and you can also help it to mature quicker by increasing the temp of the water to about 80, and if you can try and get some foam from a mature filter and wring it out in your tank.
Good luck!
Get the ammonia and nitrites down by changing 25% of the water daily for as long as you still have a reading, obviously making sure that the water is treated with a dechloriminator before you add it to the tank. Just have a look on the dechlorinator bottle and it will say if it deals with chlorimines too - and if it does'nt, then buy another one that does. Go easy on feeding too - only feed sparingly every other day for as long as you can detect ammonia and nitrite. This will help while your filter bacteria colony is growing, and you can also help it to mature quicker by increasing the temp of the water to about 80, and if you can try and get some foam from a mature filter and wring it out in your tank.
Good luck!
Water
Thanks,
The filter media I wash every two weeks in the old tank water, I clean with the same sponge that I have used since the start and I have a seperate bucket for old water and new water. The buckets etc are all stored in a special trunk and are not used for anything else. I was once cleaning with window cleaner, but for the last few months I have been using vinager on the outside of the tank instead. Once I used bleach to clean the floor in my house. However, this is only in the last month, so can't be responsible for other deaths, and I covered the tank with a shawl. I guess it could be possible that it never established, as this tank was my first I did use fish to cycle it - the guppies (not now though, I used ammonia to do it in other tank). I added the fish quite gradually, and I feed them once every two days with a cube of tubifex/bloodworm or crill. What is the size of tank I should have for clown loaches, as the fish shop are useless?
Thanks again,
Kathryn
The filter media I wash every two weeks in the old tank water, I clean with the same sponge that I have used since the start and I have a seperate bucket for old water and new water. The buckets etc are all stored in a special trunk and are not used for anything else. I was once cleaning with window cleaner, but for the last few months I have been using vinager on the outside of the tank instead. Once I used bleach to clean the floor in my house. However, this is only in the last month, so can't be responsible for other deaths, and I covered the tank with a shawl. I guess it could be possible that it never established, as this tank was my first I did use fish to cycle it - the guppies (not now though, I used ammonia to do it in other tank). I added the fish quite gradually, and I feed them once every two days with a cube of tubifex/bloodworm or crill. What is the size of tank I should have for clown loaches, as the fish shop are useless?
Thanks again,
Kathryn
-
Gary Herring
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:53 am
- Location: Swindon, England
Yes, unfortunatly the majority of aquatic shops are most definately useless when it comes to advice - they are more interested in trying to sell you as much as possible than the welfare of your fish. Either that or plain damn ignorant.
Anyway, as for clown tank size, i have never actually kept them myself so don't really feel i can answer that question. What i do know though, is that they can eventually grow up to 12 inches if kept properly, and can live well beyond 20yrs. Also, they should be in a group. You may have seen these pics before, but they give you an idea of how big they can get:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=1211
Anyway, as for clown tank size, i have never actually kept them myself so don't really feel i can answer that question. What i do know though, is that they can eventually grow up to 12 inches if kept properly, and can live well beyond 20yrs. Also, they should be in a group. You may have seen these pics before, but they give you an idea of how big they can get:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=1211
Clown loach
Thanks. I will have a look around the forum and see if there is any more info on size...they are so lovely! I will either take them back or buy a bigger tank for them straight away. Your advice has been brilliant.
Kathryn
Kathryn
-
Gary Herring
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:53 am
- Location: Swindon, England
Their are plenty of people on this site with masses of experience and knowledge of Clown loaches (Emma for one), so i'm sure you'll find all the information you need.
Here's a link to a really good article about tank cycling and dealing with raised ammonia and nitrite levels:
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/ne ... 9&forum=14
Here's a link to a really good article about tank cycling and dealing with raised ammonia and nitrite levels:
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/ne ... 9&forum=14
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 140 guests