Bottom view of a protomyzon?

[mikev]

A followup and a question:

This fish represents a mystery to me.

Firstly, it is still alive, at the store: 1.5 months after the diagnosis. He is also active. However, his head is still lighter than it should be (in my uneducated opinion).

Surviving in the environment he is in is by itself an achievement, apparently beating the disease on his own is another. Surviving the much more lethal thing that wiped out the Chenis is probably another. Surviving for a long time in the tank he is now is not likely.

But is he save or is he still a carrier?

[Jim Powers]

In my experience, it may take that fish some time to regain its full color.
I still would not get it anywhere near one of my tanks, though.
Its just not worth the risk IMHO.

[mikev]

No, I'm not taking him. (I'm only feeding him some shrimp at the store occassionally.) I would have taken him if it was only the patchy thing, but there is something worse involved here.

I'm simply very puzzled how it is possible for a disease to be present for so long time without tilting one way or another (death or recovery), and the implications this may have for quarantining.

If this errormyzon actually carries your patchy bacteria in live or dormant form for almost two months now, no quarantine would catch him or -- worse -- the next fish that carries the same bug but shows any patch at all.

For myself, I'm likely deciding on 2 month quarantine as a way of life, at least where small loaches are involved. But if you are right about this fish, you are telling me that 2 months are still not sufficient. This is seriously insane.

[Jim Powers]

The tank that in which I had Patchy disease would is still one I am reluctant to add fish to a couple of years later. Most of the fish in the tank are geriatric. I have added new fish from time to time but some seem to die unexpectedly. So, perhaps I am paranoid, but I still wonder if these fish are all carriers of Patchy disease and it is still present in the tank.
When I finally tear down this tank and refurbish it, I will be sanitizing everything.

[mikev]

Thank you very much for saying this. I do share the paranoia....not so much about the patchy disease, which I think your monocycline treatment reliably eradicated (or I never had it), but the Cheni wipeout disease (which I'm by now convinced is a separate issue) scares me due to its unclear nature and the fact that nothing worked (and I tried/still trying to fight it with as best as I could.)

I need to do some thinking over now: it is either give up on hillstreams altogether or set up another full size tank.

If I may ask --- your random fish deaths --- were they in any way specific to the type of fish? If they clustered around sucker types, this would be major bad news. Did you keep track on how long it took before the deaths occurred? (Looking for patterns).

[Jim Powers]

I noticed no patterns.

[mikev]

Thanks, Jim. Yuck indeed. Now I feel extremely sorry for you (and myself) : having to maintain a wall around a possibly dangerous tank for years.....

[Jim Powers]

The funny thing is that I have a pair of H. smithi and a G. scitulus that went in about 2 years ago that have thrived and are among the best specimens of those species I have seen.
But, several other G. scitulus and oscellatus as well as chenis and disparis put in during the same time period just died off as have some of the white cloud dithers.
On the other hand, the oldsters (all in the 5-6year old range, except for the white clouds) just keep hanging in there having survived every outbreak some years back. Very puzzling.

[mikev]

Well, it is *some* kind of data.

Possibly the right way is to see this in terms of immunity. Some species have very little of it (punctulatus was the first casualty here, and Chenis seem incapable of forming it.); some species seems to be strongly immune or capable of developing lasting immunity. Obviously, there will be some immune-deficient individuals even in such species, like your WCMM's or my rasbora; less likely, but there may be individuals with strong immunity within "weak" species, like you scutulis -- but the "perfect" genocide this bug did on Chenis makes me think such survival will not be common.

Most interesting is that you find disparis vulnerable, but my SpA (zollingeri) may be immune (recall that I misunderstood what you said and DID NOT treat SpA's). If SpA is actually disparis, this would clinch that we are dealing with different diseases, as I suspect to be the case anyway.

What about the timing: do you remember how long it took for the new fish to die after you exposed it to the bug?

On the other hand, the oldsters (all in the 5-6year old range, except for the white clouds) just keep hanging in there having survived every outbreak some years back. Very puzzling.

Not puzzling, perhaps, if this is an immunity issue. Assuming that you do still have the killer bug in the tank:

It well may be that your oldsters developed their imminuty when you had the original outbreak and treated -- except that your treatment was not complete. Was good enough to weaken the bug so that the fish developed the immunity, not good enough to eradicate the bug fully. The presense of the bug ensures that your oldsters maintain the immunity, but the newcomers don't have any defense and don't have the time to develop it.

[Jim Powers]

I really don't remember how long it took for the fish to die. Some seemed to last longer than others.
As for chenis, I had one that lived to be 5-6 years old in this tank so chenis must be able to have some immunity.
Just a note about your SpA, it can't be zollingeri.
That species is dark with lighter colored bands on the back(sometimes orange) and a black lower lobe on the caudal fin.

[mikev]

Just a note about your SpA, it can't be zollingeri.

I saw the shipping label with my own eyes

I know it is not. It came from China, all three shipments had Gobi contaminants....in all likelihood it is really a disparis or a variant disparis. I need a name, and I know you'll all scream if I start calling it disparis.

As for chenis, I had one that lived to be 5-6 years old in this tank so chenis must be able to have some immunity.

Or we don't have exactly the same disease. As of this moment Cheni wipeout is nearly complete, and given that it was at one point a 40-fish shipment, this seems sadly conclusive. So far it appears that we are seeing the exact reverse on SpA/disparis. It is still very valuable to compare notes, because the diseases are somewhat connected, and this crap is not going anywhere, it is bound to happen again.

Do you perhaps remember one more thing: did you actually have the patchy disease reemerging or did the fish that died later had no symptoms?

[Jim Powers]

The fish that died later had no "patchiness". Symptoms tended to be lack of appetite and/or hiding.

[mikev]

The fish that died later had no "patchiness". Symptoms tended to be lack of appetite and/or hiding.

Excellent!

OK, this is why I asked. Firstly, this is consistent with what I saw. Now, a slightly crazy theory that links two diseases: patchy and no patchy.

It has been previously speculated here and in PM's that there is a connection between the patchy thing and columnaries. Did not quite work, but will now:

Your patchy thing is Gram-Neg (curable by minocycline, which is primarily a gram-neg med). You have assumed that the patchy disease is the primary disease.---because you could see it & cure it. However, it also may be an opportunistic disease. Very specifically, I suspect it may be caused by Aeromonas.

Going at it with Minocycline worked but might have been aimed at the wrong target: the primary infection was still there because it was not Gram-Neg (and perhaps was not even bacterial). It also helped *in some cases* at least for you, since eliminating a dangerous secondary infection allowed the fish immune system to start working in time. Besides, the fact that you treated with Maracyn *might have* weakened the primary infection --- well, if it was bacterial and gram-pos to start with, of course.

Anyway, it is possible that both me and you did eliminate the secondary -- patchy -- infection (in my case -- before it had a chance to show up), but the primary remained/remains. In my case, still killing, and, as you say, in your tank dormant for years.

I cannot vouch that I got this exactly right, and I'm not asserting columnaries as the primary, but it explains a few things, and perhaps opens a way to solve this.

The big irony is if this is actually what happens, it would be a deja for me -- this is what the first round was one my end.

[mikev]

OFT -- but I wanted to show you this one:





This is a new SpA. An interesting girl (I think it is). Pretty fat between the pairs of fins...makes me suspect it is not just fatness. This time even I can see the Barbels. Pretty pale most of the time (old?). And a strange personality shift: it was hiding for almost three weeks, venturing out only in the dark -- I've seen this type of behavior exactly from large/old kuhli females. But right now, she is pretty aggressive, bumping the other SpA's, and goes nuts with the rest when I give them frozen shrimp. Like this:



Not a disparis?

[Jim Powers]

Interesting observations on the whole patchy disease situation.
Nice looking SpA's you have there.
The head looks too broad and shovel shaped for disparis, especially the one in the back of the bottom pic.