Kuhli Loaches

[noahm]

I have a 45 gal tall tank 36x24x12 and have 9 kuhli's. I also have 43 other fish all small(tetras) about 1-1.5 inches each. UG filter and medium plants. I change the water about once every 4 months just on principle, but I think I am about maxed on fish. It has been stable this way for over a year. I don't recommend overdoing the 1"/gal rule unles filtration/plants and niche fish are used carefully. But come on, 50 kuhlis squirming through a bunch of piles of 1-3" round rock? How fun! and entirely feasable in the 55.

Noah

[vanillasky0237]

I just went out and got 8 black kuhlis Can they be mixed with the normal and albino ones as well?

[TammyLiz]

Wait a minute, did you say you change water every four months, noahm? Uhm, if that is what you meant to say, I won't be the only one who has a thing or two to say about that.

Have you tested nitrAte levels? (NO3) It builds up over time and is toxic. I do weekly 20-30% water changes to keep it down, in keeping with most of the other members of this and most other forums. Biweekly can probably be gotten away with, but four months? No. I myself used to think it was OK (in the days where fish forums weren't very helpful, about 10 years ago). I never knew why I would sometimes lose fish after a major (60%) water change. Or why they didn't look as plump as they could have, or why my "butterfly loach" didn't survive, or why new fish tended to die when I added them, or why they never reached the maximum size stated in the profiles for them. The answer to all of that is water change water change water change. Water change.

[mikev]

Have you tested nitrAte levels? (NO3) It builds up over time and is toxic.

Not in a heavily planted tank with low bioload, plants absorb it. Heavy algae seems to do this too.

[noahm]

First of all, I expect lots of people have problems with infrequent water changes, and as a rule, I dont recommend not doing it. It has to be taken on a case by case basis. I have had tanks where I didn't change water for over a year. If it is biologically sound, it is possible. I have in my current tank. 9 kuhli's 3 cherry barbs, 5 rummy nose,2 beaufortia, 6 amano shrimp, 5 lemon tetra, 3 zebra danios, a hatchet, 4 pencil fish, 3 amber tetras, 5 otocinclus, 5 neons, and a honeycomb cat. It is a coarse pea gravel UG filter with power heads, pretty well planted, and lots of rocky surface area. If it needed it more often, I would do it. I have to say, some tanks certainly require much more frequent water changes.

Thanks,
Noah

[TammyLiz]

Well, I should have asked questions before writing such a forceful post. I appologize. I have never heard of a tank that only needed to have a water change three times a year, even a heavily planted one. Unless it is a Diana Walstead inspired tank, which the average fishkeeper does not usually bother with, and I think even your bioload is higher than she would do. So it doesn't make any sense to me, but apparantly it is possible so please forgive me. My tank is also planted and I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes since it has never been not planted, but certainly not that much. If you'd like to share your secrets, please do.

[mikev]

My 10g Q tank never developed noticeable nitrAtes, even with very heavy bioload at some points (the current bioload is seven lizards which is technically overstocked too, but at one point it had 30 fish in it). The main secret was very heavy fast-growing algae cover.

The algae actually was a bacteria, and it grew in spurs -- tank went from almost no algae to being fully covered, then bacteria dies out, becoming a gray film/mold, taken out by the filter, and it starts growing away. Strange thing, but it used up the nitrAtes very efficiently, and some fish actually ate it too.

(I did some water changes, but really did not have too.)

[TammyLiz]

Algae-like bacteria. Are you talking BGA? That is some nasty slimy stinky stuff. It couldn't be what you mean. What exactly was it?

[noahm]

I should go into a bit of detail. I would have to agree, my biload is about maxed, but it is stable. ALL of the fish are small. It is just common sense that large fecal clumps will take longer to begin breaking down. I feed carefully. The UG is covered with about 4 inches of standard landscape grade pea gravel. This has no fines, so it allows for easy flow (but greatly limits plant choices). another inch of pea gravel/pumice(huge surfac area), and very coarse 1/8th inch sand was added to help plants. I have mostly Crypts, anubias, java moss, java fern, and crinum. Lots of fun plants don't grow well with an UG filter system, so I will not be using it in my big tank. I also cut several flagstones to fit in the corners at diferent layers to add to the usable 3-d space for the fish. It significantly increases the amount of area I can plant and the fish use. I had a 20gal in the past that was stable for three years until I moved and left it in the basement. I changed the water once. I have minimal algae, I leave some on the back glass, and the rocks get a few spots, but the amanos hillstreams, and otos do the trick. I think it is simply the extra large depth (5") of bioflter that makes it possible. I am big on bioflter, so my big tank will have huge wet/dry + custom setup.

anyway, thanks...didn't think a comment about kuhli's would generate such a buzz

Noah

[TammyLiz]

Noah, if I may ask politely now, do you ever test nitrAte? Those are all slow-growing plants, which I had assumed wouldn't be using enough of it for that bioload. I understand about the surface area of the biofilter and all, but that doesn't remove nitrate. If you can confirm that it does stay low, I'm just going to be have to try this! Not that I've never heard of it, but I was just under the impression that the balance was much more fine, and difficult to attain.

[mikev]

Algae-like bacteria. Are you talking BGA? That is some nasty slimy stinky stuff. It couldn't be what you mean. What exactly was it?

Something closely related to BGA. It was green, film-like, covering most of the glass, leaves, and ground. Strong spell (not stink). Had to really wash my hands after touching this tank.

Not harmful to fish, I had this tank since last fall. Plecos and some hillstreams ate it quite actively, and I deliberately infected the new hillstream tank with it too. Very harmful to the plants, it choked them, I had to manually clean the leaves.

No more, I totally killed it with Maracyn in one tank (4 days), and with the antibiotic that apparently saved the sucker loaches in another (2 days). Interestingly, with this bacterial stuff gone, I got proper algae quickly: in one tank, it is green dots on the glass, in the hillstream tank I noticed only today green dots on the stones...they seem to attract hillstreams but are ignored by the plecos.

Whatever it was, it pulled nitrAtes out nicely.

[noahm]

I had a nitrate spike once when I moved my tank and let it sit for a couple of weeks before filling it full again and lost a few fish. They had travelled 6 hours though. I am currently waiting for another tank as I would like to have about 10 less fish though everything remains stable at this bioload. I generally do about a 20% change every 2 months on rinciple to reload carbonates to buffer the system. 4-5" of substrate is twice what most people use with UG and it is very porous so as not to clog. I spent 5 years of college in horticulture and biology, so I tend to think out side the normal box/tank. It can kept stable, and it may seem like a bit of a mix of fish, but for the most part except the ones picked by my wife, it was carefully selected to keep the tank clean. Big fish are significantly harder to keep without more frequent water changes, though I do have a friend with 6 discus and about 20 tetras in a 65 gal well planted and they find the need to change water no more than monthly. I am by no means recommending fewer changes, just noting that careful setup can minimize the need. To make an example, get a 10 gal UG with 5 neons, 2 corys, and 2 otos with some plants. just don't change the water and test it until it becomes noticable. It will take a looong time once it is cycled for a while. Also, never use epoxy coated gravel in a UG system. It cuts the surface area down exponentially. Of course if the power goes out for a few days, I could be in real trouble


Noah

[vanillasky0237]

Is it normal for kuhlis to hide almost all day when you fist get them?

[noahm]

I would say it is normal, but you need to make sure you have more than 1 or two, or you will never see them. I have a couple of piles of 1-3" river rock that they absolutely love to play in. You will see three or four of them sticking half their body out from the crevices. They just seem to feel more comfortable coming out when there are several. I feed one sinking wafer to them twice a day, and kuhlis and hillstreams turn into a frenzy of slithering and shuffling over them. If you give them more places to hide, you will probably see them more (perfect logic ). I think they just feel more at ease if they know they CAN hide.

[vanillasky0237]

Ok thanks for the advice , I actually have 8 of them, and I put a bunch of plants in the tank last night and they are diving right into the middle of them and moving around in the gravel. Also, I have black kuhlis right now, will they still group with normal and albino kuhlis if i got some of them as well?