Advice needed

[Lina]

Hi all!
I am new on this forum and new fishtank owner.
We've decided to buy a tank in August and in September we had one since then...
It was all ok until we bought 2 Clown Loaches, absolutely adorable once , and 1 Black Ghost Knife(very pretty and unsusual).
In 2 weeks time, my clowns and the BGK had a white spots, we started treating the deases but it was useles, we have lost clowns in 4 days after the first treatment, it was very sad. BGK was ok for the time being until this morning- we don't have it any more and I really wanted to know what am I doing wrong as I don't want to loose any more fish. We have got : 2 dolmation molies, 2 baloon fish, 2 angel fish, 2 gouramies, 6 platies and 2 from the act-fish family(one of them is Sailfin Plec)
When we hace started the treatment from the white spots my local fish shop told me to stop feeding the fish for 2 weeks (5 days are already past) in order to maintain correct water quality for the fish- I think i was over feeding them from teh beginning.
Can somebody give me advice on the situation, please as I am very worried about a Plec at the moment it has got some very light grey colour on 1 side and I have no idea what is it and how to treat it and what to add to their meal (i.e. I've read that they do like green pease and cucumbers??).

Many thanks in advance.

[starsplitter7]

Dear Lina,

Unfortunately, you have had the same problems most beginners have had, including me. I am just giving you basic info, and the experts will be along soon.

We need more information.

1.) How big is your tank?

2.) What are your water parameters?
1.) Ammonia =
2.) Nitrite =
3.) Nitrate =
4.) pH =

If you do not have a test kit, take a sample to your local fish shop (LFS) and have them test it for you. Have them write down the actual numbers, not just say it is good or bad. Then post those numbers.

If I was you, I would return all the fish, and restart your tank. I would disinfect the tank and filters, gravel and decorations, and start from the beginning.

Starting with an ick (white spot) infestation is not the way to begin.

Your original problem was probably that your tank wasn't cycled. That means the bacteria population wasn't large enough to "eat" all the Ammonia your fish were producing. This causes extreme stress for the fish, and ick is often a reaction to stress.

Clowns and knife fish are sensitive fish, and not good for a new tank. Since your tank isn't cycled, and you added so many fish, they are basically poisoning themselves with ammonia.

Once you disinfect the tank, all your equipment, ... then you should start again with fish less cycling. It takes about 6 weeks to completely cycle a tank. Research fish less cycling.

You set up your tank, add the gravel, decorations, plants and start up your filters. Then add a drop of pure ammonia (no fragrances or cleaners) to help feed your bacteria. Get your water tested in a week.

Keep this up until Ammonia is 0, Nitrite is zero and Nitrate is just above zero. Discontinue the ammonia.

Then you add one or two small fish and allow the bacteria to grow to handle the additional bioload (ammonia). When the Ammonia and nitrite stay at 0, you can add a couple more small fish.

Once your tank is cycled you can add fish according to the size of your tank.

Keep in mind your fish's adult size when adding them. Clowns grow to 12-16" and require very large tanks and a minimum of 5 fish. A sailfin Pleco can grow to 24" and require super large tanks. Snails and smaller Pleco like Bristlenoses do a better job at keeping a tank clean.

While you wait for your tank to cycle, research the fish you would like to keep.

My rule of thumb when feeding a fish is the size of the eye. I feed about that much food per fish. They are cold blooded and do not require the calories that warm blooded creatures require.

I wish you the best of luck.

[helen nightingale]

sorry to hear of your losses and your problems.

by the sound of it Tanja has given you much better advice than the pet store did.

the water eadings she asked you to get are very important. you shold have no ammonia or nitrite, and as little nitrate as possible, under 20 ppm. the good bacteria in your filter will turn the ammonia into nitrite, and then into nitrate. nitrate is the least toxic, but the bacteria doesnt break it down, so without water changes, it will build up to dangerous levels. by stopping feeding the fish, you will reduce the ammoinia the fish produce, but you will not reduce the nitrates, so your water will remain toxic.

the best thing to have advised would have been to do lots of water changes. unfortunatley, lots of shops do not have very knowladgeable staff, and give very bad advise, or wrong information.


would you be able to post a picture of the plec? it is easier to see what could be wrong with it. you can buy several types of sinking pellets that your catfish would probably enjoy, as well as algae wafers. cucumber will be good too, but dont forget to remove the outside bits after a while (they normally prefer the seedy bit in the middle), as that will turn the water bad if it left in the tank too long.

[Lina]

Thank you very much for a quick responce.
My tank is 180 litres (Juwell 180 with original filter, i think it is the compact filter)
The water parametres are as follows:
1.NO3 - is between 25 & 50 mg/l
2. NO2 is 0
3.GH is >16
4. KH is between 6 to 10
5. pH is about 8-8.4

I have got Tertatest 5 in 1.

Regarding the "friendly bacteria" I was using the "Filter Start" by Interpet (number 14) and was following instructions on a leaflet, i.e. I was adding 5ml for the tank, directly to the filter area.

Can I add it again?, the carbon is removed from aquarium at the moment due to the ich treatment.

I will not be able to return the fish due to the ilness in the aquarium (this what I was told), so I will have to "fight" against the deseases and proper set up.

I'll post pictures of my Clown Plec and Pecoltia later on today.

Many thanks one more time.

[Ashleigh]

You Nitrate is a little high, ideally it should be kept 20ppm or under, 10 prefered.

Any of the filter start products are a waste of money imo, the only benefical product on the market at the moment is Biospira, it is expensive, but can assist well with a cycle if used and stored correctly.

Do you have an ammonia reading?

What treatment are you using to treat the whitespot?

Best thing to do now, as Helen said, is plenty of water changes, vac the substrate very well. When the cysts that you see on the fish now burst, the ich organisms will fall to the aquarium floor, burrow into the substrate and begin to reproduce. This is why it is very important to vac the substrate as much as you can, but not so much that you will disrupt your benefical bacteria, Id aim for half the tank one night, half the tank the following and replacing the amount of medication that you would have removed while doing so. What temp is your tank at? Might be an idea to bump it up a few degrees to speed up the ich cycle. Try and increase the aeration in the tank.

When you see all physical signs of ich gone from the fish, keep up treatment for another week/couple of weeks just to be on the safe side


Ashleigh

[Lina]

No I don’t have an ammonia treatment. What would you recommend, i.e. which test and where can I buy it?
For the white spots I’m using “Anti white spot” by Interpet (number 6). I’ve been told that there are another product, but I can not use it as I have started this one, is it correct?

I’m doing regular water change using the vac once a week about 10-20% each time. It has started from the water change,i.e. I’ve changed about 50% once and the Clown Loaches get the white spot. Pet shop sale person told me that it might be that the Clowns get stressed and the white spots are appeared and I haven’t recognised it straight away, only few days later when it was a bit too late.

At the moment I can not see any ich on any of my fish, but as I mentioned before my Plec and Pecoltia are looking a bit suspicious. Clown Plec became a bit darker (it was very light pinky-yellow when I bought it) and Pecoltia have got some …. You’ll see on the picture I’ll post in a second.
I’ve got the air pump in the tank, is it not enough? Should I keep the top open or some of it?

[Lina]

Oh yes, and the water temperature is 26.7

[Lina]

Please see pictures of my Clown Plec and Pecoltia here:
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lina.tara ... Od7q-A4IBo#

Can somebody tell me what it can be on Pecoltia, please.
Maybe it's me, going mad after loss of 3 fishes?

Many thanks.

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[mickthefish]

Lina i just hope you have a pretty big tank as both this species grow to around 20 to 24 inches long. the first is an albino plec and the big boy is a gibbiceps or sailfin plec.
going of the pic it could be i just wedged itself against some decor and the mucus has been scraped of or a worse scenario is it might have a bacterial infection on the scutes.

mick

[starsplitter7]

An easy way to increase oxygen is if you have a hang on the back filter. You drop the water level and the water splashes into the tank increasing oxygen.

Are you using strips or a liquid test kit? I don't find strips accurate. I don't live in the UK so I can't help you with products.

Keep up the water changes and continue vacuuming the bottom. It is one of the best ways to remove the white spot. Also keeping the water as clean and healthy as possible will help if your Pleco has a bacteria problem or scraped its mucous coat. I had a catfish that had a terrible injury from being stuck in a decoration, and after many water changes in a hospital tank, it finally recuperated.

[Diana]

Hi Lina

Here is what I would do at this point:
1) Go get a test kit for ammonia. The same store where you have been buying stuff may sell it. Test for ammonia and post the results.
...1a) If your tank is still showing ammonia I would get Tetra Safe Start (I know it is available in the UK) or Dr. Tim's One and Only (I have no idea if it is available) Other bacterial helpers are not very helpful.
...1b) If the ammonia is still showing then do enough water changes (Frequency and volume) to keep the ammonia under .25 ppm.

2) Water changes. Especially vacuum the floor of the tank to remove fallen Ich organisms and debris. Do something like 3-4 water changes per week of 25%. This will reduce the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels in the tank, as well as lower the Ich population. (If there is ammonia follow instruction 1b) 25% is not too large a water change, and will not cuase stress in the fish.
...2a) Test the tap water for all the same things you have tested the tank for and post back here. If the tap water GH, KH and pH are different from the tank then this could be part of the stress that can leave the fish open to parasites or infection.

3) Keep up the Ich medication until at least 3 days after you have seen the last spot on the fish.

4) Monitor the grey area on the Pleco. This might be a bacterial infection caused by Flavobacteria columnaris. If it does not clear up with the cleaner water you may have to treat with an antibiotic. I think Interpet makes at least one product that treats this.

Ditto the other comments about tank size vs fish size. 180l is only about a 45 gallon tank. Maybe 4' long? This is not much space for fish that get a foot or more in length. There is not enough water in a tank this size to dilute the wastes of such large fish, too. Once the diseases are cleared up I would return any fish that gets over 4" adult size, and restock with smaller fish.
Restock slowly, though. The beneficial bacteria need to grow to be able to handle the waste load.

[Lina]

Dear Diana, Mick….everybody,

Thank you very much for the info…it is very helpful.
This is full tank parameters (sorry it is very difficult for me to understand inches etc. , I get used to meters and centimeters):

Volume: approx. 180 litres
Light System with electronic ballast and 2 x 25 W tube
JUWEL Filter System: Compact H
Size: 92 x 55 x 41 cm

When I was buying a Plecos I’ve read that they do not grow more that 14sm??? And 20 inches is about 50sm (is it correct???) O my God… of course if it will grow that big my tank is very small….

-I am using a strap at the moment, but will buy a liquid test as you recommended.

-How do I know if it is the bacterial infection, I mean how can I recognize it?

-If the tap water GH, KH and pH are different from the tank what should I do?

-Guys tell me – DO I HAVE TO FEED THEM at the moment or not??? Poor fishes they are coming to the front glass as soon as I’m sitting and watching them … I do have some live plant in the aquarium and have noticed that some of them nip/eat it. At the moment water in the tank is very clean, and I can not see any white spots on any fish…..(the only fish which had it was Loaches and a Knife- but they are not there any more). All the fish are very active including the Plecos (they are swimming around, Plecos are on the sides or under the wood or in the live plants…. )

[Ashleigh]

When I was buying a Plecos I’ve read that they do not grow more that 14sm??? And 20 inches is about 50sm (is it correct???) O my God… of course if it will grow that big my tank is very small….

When you were buying, do you mean going by the info that the pet/fish shop gave you? Usually they highly under estimate the size of the fish that they sell.

-I am using a strap at the moment, but will buy a liquid test as you recommended.

The best liquid test kit to try and get hold of is the API Test kit, you can buy the entire test kit (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, high pH, pH) or you can buy each individually and they last for ages

-How do I know if it is the bacterial infection, I mean how can I recognize it?

The first is to look at the symptoms, behaviour and physical appearance of the fish, sometimes it is quite difficult to judge. You will also need to test your tap water to make sure that it isn't just stress of fluctuating water parameters that is causing them to be off colour.

If the tap water GH, KH and pH are different from the tank what should I do?

I wouldn't think about this until you have tested your tap water and have the results. There are a number of ways to change the water chemistry, I would leave it to someone that is better explaining to post up Just stay away from any of the 'pH up' and 'pH down' products that you see in the pet stores, they are just plain useless and inflict more problems than they are worth

-Guys tell me – DO I HAVE TO FEED THEM at the moment or not??? Poor fishes they are coming to the front glass as soon as I’m sitting and watching them … I do have some live plant in the aquarium and have noticed that some of them nip/eat it. At the moment water in the tank is very clean, and I can not see any white spots on any fish…..(the only fish which had it was Loaches and a Knife- but they are not there any more). All the fish are very active including the Plecos (they are swimming around, Plecos are on the sides or under the wood or in the live plants…. )

I would feed them but keep a close eye on your water parameters and try and get a reading for ammonia as soon as possible. Might be best to throw in a few extra water changes a week just until you know your readings. Have you tried some cucumber/courgette in with your plec's? All you have to do if remove the seeds and slice in half so the fish can get to the flesh, blanch it in some hot water for 5-50mins, pop it on a fork so it sinks and leave it in for an hr or so, they will love it


The thing with whitespot, is that it can stay hidden within the gills of the fish for a fair while, you can look at your fish and it could be weeks before it physically shows up on your fish, this is why you must keep up with an ich treatment even after all physical signs disappear, it can be stubborn at the best of times to get rid of


Ashleigh

[mickthefish]

if it is a bacterial problem Lina, it won't just stay in one part of the body it will enlarge it's area.
i have a feeling knowing this fish it's just scraped itself or lay right next to the heater, they're pretty thick fish and don't seem to feel the heat burning them.

as for shops. there are good ones and there's lots af bad ones that will sell and tell you anything to get the sale.
in London the shop i always go to, wholesale trops. ask for terry and tell him your new to fishkeeping and could he help you, pretty please.
he'll sort you out.

mick

[Lina]

Yes, this is exactly what he does... he just stuck next to the heater on the plastick where the filter is and it is more on one side rather than on another...

Will find that shop and go there, thanks...