OK--this links back to my post about tail rot.
So it turned out I had two (2) kits that were reading nitrates incorrectly. After buying a new kit and borrowing a friend's kit, turns out my nitrates are around 60-80 (I'm not so good with colors). Fortunately, nitrite and ammonia remain at zero. Also, I am on well water, so I have hard water. Water comes out of the well with nitrates around 5-10ppm. I am probably the culprit for the nitrates--with my problem test kits, it looked like the water quality was ok, I had reduced my regular water changes, and....damn me!
Filtration: For this 75 gallon tank that has both a Aquaclear filter for a 70 gallon AND the largest size Emporer, I added last night Purigen as well as Seachem Matrix.
Anyhow, here is my question and concern--I am always very hesitant to use chemical solutions, but...are there any chemicals I can add ASAP to safely reduce nitrates? Or a Polyfilter or something?
***In the past 3 days, I have done a 15g, 15, and 12g water change, and the nitrates are not moving--still around 60 tonight.*** If I keep up with daily water changes, how many gallons per day would you suggest that won't cause problems with biological filtration.
Help!
(P.S. Keith--the issue was darkening of colors and dark spots on the clown loaches--it remained stable, all clowns are still alive, so probably a function of the hard water).
Doglover
HELP! Nitrates--argh!!!
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
Water changes can be quite large if the KH, GH, TDS and temperature are similar to the tank water.
Larger water changes mean nothing to nitrifying bacteria: these bacteria are living on surfaces such as gravel and filter media. They do not live in the water in significant numbers.
If the new water is different from the tank water then you will want to do more frequent smaller water changes. It looks like the fish are keeping up with the ammonia production (Which of course shows up as nitrate) as fast as you are currently removing it. I would suggest either larger water changes, or more frequent ones.
If you managed a 100% water change then the nitrates would end up at 10 ppm (= tap water)
If you did a 50% water change the nitrates would end up at 35 ppm (50% of 60 and 50% of 10)
If you did a 25% water change the nitrates would end up at 48.5 ppm.
One water change of 15 gallons on a 75 gallon tank is 20% and you say the fish are replacing it as fast as you are removing it. Hard to tell on the test kit if the nitrate level really dropped. Well it did, from 60 ppm to 50 ppm.
If the fish are contributing 10 ppm daily then you will need to remove 20 ppm to really start to see it dropping. (Remove in this case means net removal, remembering that the tap water is also adding nitrates back to the tank)
I would go for some significantly larger water changes, therefore, and make a regular practice of doing them. VERY regular. Then the tank water will become very much like the tap water, and it will not be such a stress to the fish to do large water changes.
The math is not really difficult (just tedious), but you could do some 25% water changes twice a day whenever you had time, and once a day, absolutely every day, and this would start altering the tank water chemistry to better match the tap water, and lower the nitrates. Then you could start doing larger, less frequent water changes based on test results.
Some dechlorinators will lock up nitrates. Read the labels. Do not depend on them long term, get the water change schedule set up and running.
Plants are very good at removing nitrogen. Perhaps heavily planting the tank would help. If the fish are plant eaters then setting up a planted sump may be part of the answer.
Fewer fish in the tank may be part of the answer, too.
Larger water changes mean nothing to nitrifying bacteria: these bacteria are living on surfaces such as gravel and filter media. They do not live in the water in significant numbers.
If the new water is different from the tank water then you will want to do more frequent smaller water changes. It looks like the fish are keeping up with the ammonia production (Which of course shows up as nitrate) as fast as you are currently removing it. I would suggest either larger water changes, or more frequent ones.
If you managed a 100% water change then the nitrates would end up at 10 ppm (= tap water)
If you did a 50% water change the nitrates would end up at 35 ppm (50% of 60 and 50% of 10)
If you did a 25% water change the nitrates would end up at 48.5 ppm.
One water change of 15 gallons on a 75 gallon tank is 20% and you say the fish are replacing it as fast as you are removing it. Hard to tell on the test kit if the nitrate level really dropped. Well it did, from 60 ppm to 50 ppm.
If the fish are contributing 10 ppm daily then you will need to remove 20 ppm to really start to see it dropping. (Remove in this case means net removal, remembering that the tap water is also adding nitrates back to the tank)
I would go for some significantly larger water changes, therefore, and make a regular practice of doing them. VERY regular. Then the tank water will become very much like the tap water, and it will not be such a stress to the fish to do large water changes.
The math is not really difficult (just tedious), but you could do some 25% water changes twice a day whenever you had time, and once a day, absolutely every day, and this would start altering the tank water chemistry to better match the tap water, and lower the nitrates. Then you could start doing larger, less frequent water changes based on test results.
Some dechlorinators will lock up nitrates. Read the labels. Do not depend on them long term, get the water change schedule set up and running.
Plants are very good at removing nitrogen. Perhaps heavily planting the tank would help. If the fish are plant eaters then setting up a planted sump may be part of the answer.
Fewer fish in the tank may be part of the answer, too.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Be sure to gravel vacuum well each time too. We had poor water quality one place we lived & used ChemiPure, resin & carbon, to help along with a ton of java fern. Lots of water changes too.
You may only be able to get to 30ppm or so realistically but it doesn't leave room for slacking off. You might try cutting back feeding a bit, I think many of us tend to overfeed. A day off is not a big deal to adult fish.
You may only be able to get to 30ppm or so realistically but it doesn't leave room for slacking off. You might try cutting back feeding a bit, I think many of us tend to overfeed. A day off is not a big deal to adult fish.
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doglover_50
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- Location: USA
found the culprit--and another question
So, after doing over 150% water changes over ~10 days, including as a massive gravel vac, the nitrates never budged. At all. AND I know my test kit is accurate. So before you read on, want to take a guess what the problem was? How would this 7g tank continue to read very high nitrates--around 60ppm--(0 nitrite, 0 ammonia) despite all of these WCs, and my house is on well-water.
Answer: I can be a little slow, but I finally *re*checked the water out of the tap. And sure enough--the nitrate level coming out of the tap was identical--60 ppm. I have no idea what happened underground, as it had read in prior testings over a year or more 5-10 ppm, but something changed.
So my immediate solution will have to be to use my RO/DI system--I am guessing the need to get those nitrates down trumps the issue of not changing the TDS in the tank too drastically. So, I will plan on something like (75 gallon tank) water changes of 20 gallons per day for a few days to get nitrates down, but hopefully not to cause any TDS shock.
Thoughts on the nitrates vs. TDS issue, Keith? Also, for anyone else--would you do larger WCs more quickly to get those nitrates down? The TDS from my RO/DI leaves the water with a reading of 5 ppm.
Thanks, DL
Answer: I can be a little slow, but I finally *re*checked the water out of the tap. And sure enough--the nitrate level coming out of the tap was identical--60 ppm. I have no idea what happened underground, as it had read in prior testings over a year or more 5-10 ppm, but something changed.
So my immediate solution will have to be to use my RO/DI system--I am guessing the need to get those nitrates down trumps the issue of not changing the TDS in the tank too drastically. So, I will plan on something like (75 gallon tank) water changes of 20 gallons per day for a few days to get nitrates down, but hopefully not to cause any TDS shock.
Thoughts on the nitrates vs. TDS issue, Keith? Also, for anyone else--would you do larger WCs more quickly to get those nitrates down? The TDS from my RO/DI leaves the water with a reading of 5 ppm.
Thanks, DL
Nitrates at low levels won't directly cause fin rot. It's the pollution that migrates with Nitrates that usually causes fin rot. Particularly, it's the suspended solids
(organic matter / broken down waste products) that the pathogenic bacteria thrive on.
Many planted tank owners need to add nitrates in the chemical form to their tanks because Nitrogen products are a main nutrient for plants. Nitrates at low levels are not harmful to fish, but they will become toxic at higher levels. Since the nitrates are so high from your source water, you'll need to find a way to control them, to keep them from getting above 80ppm. You could add some fast growing plants to your aquarium to get the nitrates down.
Or you could use RO water. When you use RO water for freshwater tanks, it usually needs to be mineralized with something like Kent R/O Right. You'd need to establish what the normal water parameters will be for each water change, in particular the gH, kH, and TDS . Using RO water can be a lot of extra work though.
If it was up to me I'd get into plants. My aquarium system partly depends on plants to reduce the nitrates and the organic load. You have a ton of options with plants. You can grow the plants in the aquarium or out of the aquarium or both. There are some great plant filter set-ups on the internet that you might want to look at.
(organic matter / broken down waste products) that the pathogenic bacteria thrive on.
Many planted tank owners need to add nitrates in the chemical form to their tanks because Nitrogen products are a main nutrient for plants. Nitrates at low levels are not harmful to fish, but they will become toxic at higher levels. Since the nitrates are so high from your source water, you'll need to find a way to control them, to keep them from getting above 80ppm. You could add some fast growing plants to your aquarium to get the nitrates down.
Or you could use RO water. When you use RO water for freshwater tanks, it usually needs to be mineralized with something like Kent R/O Right. You'd need to establish what the normal water parameters will be for each water change, in particular the gH, kH, and TDS . Using RO water can be a lot of extra work though.
If it was up to me I'd get into plants. My aquarium system partly depends on plants to reduce the nitrates and the organic load. You have a ton of options with plants. You can grow the plants in the aquarium or out of the aquarium or both. There are some great plant filter set-ups on the internet that you might want to look at.
How to do massive water changes with RO water:
1) Measure tank values for GH, KH and TDS (yes, this means buying a meter, probably < $20 on Amazon)
2) Put RO water in a garbage can (I use the Rubbermaid Brute, on wheels)
3) Add baking soda to raise the KH and Seachem Equilibrium or other source of calcium and magnesium to raise GH. If Kent RO right does this go for it (I have nothing against the Kent product line, simply have not used that one) until the KH and GH are within 10% of the value in the tank. Also test TDS as you are adding the minerals. If the KH and GH are not perfect, not a problem. Really work to get the TDS right. To dissolve these materials faster you might put them in a jar with some of the RO water and shake them up really well.
If the water is cooler than the tank I put some water on the stove to heat and mix it back in. A small pump (100 to 200 gallons per hour) is helpful.
4) Do the water change. (Rubbermaid brute holds 32 gallons according to the label, I assume 30 gallons, because I do not fill it all the way up)
Note: If the GH and KH are too high for the fish and you would like to alter the water to help the fish you can. Make each mixture with a little less of the minerals that raise the GH and KH so that each water change means a small drop in the KH and GH. Over perhaps a month or so the levels will come down and the fish will adjust gradually.
With 60 ppm nitrate in the well water I hope you and your family are not drinking it!
I would set up a pre-treatment tank that is JUST plants. Run as much tap water as you want into the plant tank, and monitor the nitrates. When the plants have removed the nitrates (or at least seriously lowered them) then you can use this water for water changes. Most of the minerals will still be there. Plants use many of them as minor nutrients, but very little. This is a slow method, but will work on a small scale.
1) Measure tank values for GH, KH and TDS (yes, this means buying a meter, probably < $20 on Amazon)
2) Put RO water in a garbage can (I use the Rubbermaid Brute, on wheels)
3) Add baking soda to raise the KH and Seachem Equilibrium or other source of calcium and magnesium to raise GH. If Kent RO right does this go for it (I have nothing against the Kent product line, simply have not used that one) until the KH and GH are within 10% of the value in the tank. Also test TDS as you are adding the minerals. If the KH and GH are not perfect, not a problem. Really work to get the TDS right. To dissolve these materials faster you might put them in a jar with some of the RO water and shake them up really well.
If the water is cooler than the tank I put some water on the stove to heat and mix it back in. A small pump (100 to 200 gallons per hour) is helpful.
4) Do the water change. (Rubbermaid brute holds 32 gallons according to the label, I assume 30 gallons, because I do not fill it all the way up)
Note: If the GH and KH are too high for the fish and you would like to alter the water to help the fish you can. Make each mixture with a little less of the minerals that raise the GH and KH so that each water change means a small drop in the KH and GH. Over perhaps a month or so the levels will come down and the fish will adjust gradually.
With 60 ppm nitrate in the well water I hope you and your family are not drinking it!
I would set up a pre-treatment tank that is JUST plants. Run as much tap water as you want into the plant tank, and monitor the nitrates. When the plants have removed the nitrates (or at least seriously lowered them) then you can use this water for water changes. Most of the minerals will still be there. Plants use many of them as minor nutrients, but very little. This is a slow method, but will work on a small scale.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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