Clowdy water help

[55gal]

I have had clowdy water for aboyt 8 days now and it seems to be getting worse.
I added a bio-wheel filter 2 days after the clowdy water started.
I took my water in to be tested and all things were good except ph was high i think sorry can't remember.
I know you will want exact #'s so i will get it tested tomorow and report that.
The fish store said the bio wheel would probally fix the problem because i had a lack of bio filtration.
But the water is worse.
Any things i can do or any ideas? The fish seem happy and my rummynosed tetras are bright and colorful.(Isn't that an indicator of trouble?)
Thanks.

[Diana]

How long has the aquarium been set up?
How did you cycle the tank?

Cloudy water is a sign of a few different things.
1) Heterotrophic bacteria. These are beneficial bacteria, though not part of the nitrogen cycle. They usually show up in a fairly new set up, or when some big changes have been done that may have stirred up some of the debris at the bottom of the tank. The cloud ought to go away in a few days.
2) Beginnings of green water algae. At first it shows up as grey or white cloudiness, then you can see it turning green. You can kill this with a black out, but it is not just as simple as turning off the light.
3) New tank with a buildup of several problems including possibly ammonia, nitrite and other toxins.
4) pH problems, often triggered by the use of pH Up or pH Down sorts of products. Don't use these products. If there really is a pH problem lets get all the numbers and deal with it properly. We need GH and KH of tap and tank, and pH of the tap water right out of the faucet and after it has been sitting for 24-48 hours to begin to deal with pH problems.

Get a test kit for yourself, you will be using it enough!
And do not trust the store personal about tests. They may not know how to do them, they always say "It is fine" even when it is not. They do not understand how one parameter interacts with another. They do not know what the fish are really in need of.
You need to do your own testing, and keep records for several reasons.

[55gal]

sorry in taking a while in getting back - what is
'GH and KH"?
i am looking at test kits and i do not see that.
thank you

[Diana]

GH is General Hardness, a measure of calcium and magnesium. This is the hardness that is used to determine if the water is hard or soft for the fish.

KH is carbonate hardness, also called alkalinity. This is a measure of carbonates. Carbonates act as a buffer and hold the pH stable. Roughly, and not always high KH means high pH, and low KH means low pH.

In dealing with water that may have pH or hardness issues it is best to get all the numbers before trying to 'do something'. Better to know what you are doing first.

GH and KH are measured in a couple of ways.
The tests can report GDH, German Degrees of Hardness; or ppm, parts per million; or mg/l, milligrams per liter.
mg/l and ppm are the same numbers.
There are 17.9 ppm in one GDH.

Tap water pH can vary, often because of carbon dioxide. When you first run tap water out of the tap it might be very high in CO2 or it may be very low in CO2. After it sits out the water loses or gains CO2 from the air and the pH will either rise or lower, and become similar to what it would be in the aquarium.

If you suspect there is a pH problem and want to get to the root of it here are the things to know:

Tap water pH fresh from the tap
Tap water pH after standing for 24-48 hours.
Tap water GH
Tap water KH

Tank pH
Tank GH
Tank KH

The fish you have or would like to keep. Are you interested in breeding these fish?

[55gal]

First off thank you for your great reply. Everyone here is so pleasent and healpful. I belong to anouther fourm(name ommited) and sometimes people are militant about their guidelines for healping.

So it took me a while to get it together - 3 different stores before i found a good comprehinsive test kit. I got the Fresh Lab Delux by Red Sea. It tests ph, nh, gh, kh, fe, co2, cl2.
so here are my results minus the time it takes to give the 24 hour ph.

Tap water pH fresh from the tap - 7.4
Tap water pH after standing for 24-48 hours. ? not yet. but soon.

Tap water GH - 3
Tap water KH - 8
(I am unshure if i am reading/doing the test correctly)
Tank pH - 6.4
Tank GH - 8
Tank KH - 8
(I am unshure if i am reading/doing the test correctly)
I am unshure because when doing the test it askes me to find a starting color and then add drops to find a finishing color. If for example the ending color is red do i want it to be just a red tint or quite red like the color on the card? I tried to get it as close as possible.

[andyroo]

Why not stop feeding for a couple of days and see what happens.
Fish will be fine, unless they start eating one another. If they aren't now they probably won't. I've also had some luck with freshwater clams/mussels.
A

[55gal]

I am finding as i get olde it is a good idea when doing something new it is a good idea to think about what you are doing so i have re read the instructions and thought overnight on this and i have re tested.

Tap water pH fresh from the tap - 7.4
Tap water pH after standing for 24-48 hours. - 9 hours left till results.
Tap water GH - 2
Tap water KH - 1

Tank pH - 6.4
Tank GH - 6
Tank KH - 0

Also Nh - 0.25
No - .05
I am much more confidant in these results.
So I could be overfeeding, thanks for that advice andyroo. I could be, we shall see.
Thank so much - joe.

[chefkeith]

If the Kh is dropping to 0 then that is the problem. The Gh going up is another problem.

1) You'll have find a way to raise the Kh and make it steady. The reason why it is dropping is probably because the nitrifying bacteria in the filter are using the buffers up as their source of Carbon.

You should raise the Kh. There are a few methods to help fix this. You can add a buffer directly to water like Baking Soda, or you can pre-treat the water with Crushed Coral. Keep in mind that water chemistry changes need to be done very slowly so that it doesn't stress the fish.

Another thing that could help is to change the biological filtration method so that it will use CO2 from the air instead of KH from the water. Biowheels and trickle filters are good for this.

2) You'll have to figure out what rocks are leaching in the tank and remove them.

[55gal]

Wow I just learned so much fron a few sentances. Cool!
Hey chefkeith if you refer to my Kh dropping and my Gh going up. If that is because my 2 posts show different #'s i know the first ones are wrong.
As to your 2nd point about rocks leaching in the tank i did just add new rocks! Aaaahh hhaaa! I did boil all rocks for a good while though.
And I do have a Bio-wheel and anouther outside filter.
So what are good Gh and Kh #'s?

[55gal]

And my tap water ph after 24 hours is the same as frest tap water 7.4.

[chefkeith]

Still have the undergravel filter?

Steady is what you want for KH and GH. If you are not adding anything, then these numbers should be the same from the tap and in the aquarium.

[55gal]

Yes i do still use the undergravel, are those considered bad? I was thinking when i set it up "How and how often do you clean these things."
It shure would be a pain to take everything out and clean especially considering i do not have anouther tank big enough to hold all my fish.
From what i have read here i might put the undergravel powerheads to better use as current creator not undergravel filtration.?
I did remove the newist rocks just in case.

I just looked under my tank and their is lots of gunk under their.
I could use extra clear plastic pipe i have and adapt it to my shopvac hose and suck (hopefully) alot of it out througe the 3 spots the powerheads are.

Oh yea good thing i re-read these messages i am such a bad typest. Hahahahahah.

[chefkeith]

Yes, I think UGF's can be very bad. They can cause all kinds of problems with the water chemistry.

You'll definately need to get something to put the fish in if you decide to excavate the UGF.

If you have a Home Depot or maybe even a Kmart near by, they should have 20+ gallon Rubbermaid Storage Containers that can be used temporary to hold the fish.

I've got four 25 gallon containers and they are extremely handy for aquarium purposes.

You can store all your spare fish equipment in them. You can use them as a mixing station for water changes. Use them as emergency tanks. Use them as a dirty water collection tank for when you clean your filters. Some people even use them to make sumps. The uses are unlimited.

They are usually cheap also. I think I got mine for $6 each and they come with a lid too.

[Diana]

I have copied your second batch of test results, and added a few comments next to a couple of them, then added a lot more comments (no italics) at the bottom.

Tap water pH fresh from the tap - 7.4
Tap water pH after standing for 24-48 hours. - 7.4.
Tap water GH - 2
Tap water KH - 1

Tank pH - 6.4
Tank GH - 6
Tank KH - 0

Also Nh - 0.25 NH3 is toxic, but at the current pH of the tank most or all the ammonia will be in the NH4+ form, not so toxic. Keep up the water changes to keep the ammonia under .25 ppm. (See my note * below)
No - .05 (Is this NO2? Nitrite is toxic, though this is a low level. Watch it. If it rises, do enough water changes to keep it under 1.0 ppm)
NO3 is Nitrate. Not so toxic, but it does seem to stress the fish a bit, and leaves them open to diseases. Do enough water changes to keep the nitrate under 20 ppm, or lower for more sensitive fish.

* Ammonia removing bacteria do not do very well when the pH is too low. Whether it is actually the pH or the poor supply of minerals, common when the pH is so low, I do not know. But, when the pH drops to around 6, I have seen a lot of ammonia tests showing positive. Ammonia is generally present in tanks in either of 2 forms. In high pH tanks more of the ammonia is in the toxic NH3 form. At lower pH more of the ammonia is in the less toxic NH4+ form. Raising the pH above 7.0 is not a good idea while ammonia is in the tank. Monitor the ammonia and raise the pH to about the mid 6s and watch as the nitrifying bacteria recover. You will see the ammonia drop and the nitrite may rise. If the nitrite does rise, then add 1 teaspoon of salt per 20 gallons to guard against Brown Blood Disease.

Tap water pH is stable. This is good.

Tank pH compared to tap pH suggests there is something going on, and the drop in KH seems to confirm this. Something is removing KH and this is allowing the pH to drop.

Test this:
In a bucket (not the tank)
Try 4 gallons of tank water and 1/8 teaspoon of baking soda. Should raise the KH by 2 degrees. The pH should come up to maybe 6.6. Stir the baking soda into the water and test after a short while, then test the next day to be sure it is stable.
If this works, then I would suggest adding 1 teaspoon of baking soda per 30 gallons to the tank. This is just a bit less than 1/8 tsp in 4 gallons of water, so the results should be similar, and not too big a change for the fish. (It will also keep the pH low until the ammonia problem is resolved)
If it is stable, and you want the KH higher then add another teaspoon when the ammonia situation is cleared up. With every water change you may have to add 1 tsp per 30 gallons of new water. (So close to 1/8 tsp per 4 gallons, use that amount if the water change is smaller).
If it is not stable, there are more complex ways of handling this.

The GH rising in the tank suggests a couple of things.
Some plant fertilizers have calcium or magnesium in them. Is this a planted tank? (Hmm... some plants utilize carbonates as a source of carbon, this could also explain the missing KH).
Most rocks or other decor that is high in Ca and Mg are also high in KH, so if there were limestone or coral decor I would expect both GH and KH to rise. Not a bad thing, in this case, these 2 are so low in the tap water it seems the pH is unstable.

Optimum numbers for GH and KH depend on the fish you are keeping.
Soft water fish are generally best with GH and KH between about 3 degrees and 9 degrees, though many will not breed unless the GH is under about 5 degrees (Varies with the species)
Rift Lake Cichlids prefer MUCH harder water, GH and KH well over 10 degrees, and are fine with GH and KH approaching 20 degrees.
Most community fish that have been bred in captivity will be fine at a very wide range of conditions, GH and KH from about 3 degrees to slightly over 10 degrees.

KH under 3 degrees seems to allow the pH to change more easily, and when the various organisms in the tank (Plant and microorganisms) remove KH, and there is only a little there it can (as yours does) easily drop to 0 degrees.

To figure out what might be raising the GH and/or removing the KH you could test each item from the tank, one at a time, in a bucket of tap water. Let the thing sit in the bucket overnight or longer and see if there is a change to the GH, KH and pH of the water. Do this with a scoop of gravel, too.


Metric: I have added (American) 1 teaspoon of baking soda per 30 gallons and gotten a rise in KH of 2 degrees and of pH of .2 (from 6.0 to 6.2)
These is the same volumes as:
5ml of baking soda per 114 liters of water.
Baking soda is also called Bicarbonate of Soda.


I would definitely remove the UGF system. If you are not ready to do this, then yes, do what you can through the tubes the power heads are sitting on, and see if you can shift most of the debris from under the plates. The build up of waste like this can lead to bad water parameters.
One thing to try: If you can turn a power head around so it is aiming down one of the tubes while you are siphoning out of the other you might get more debris. Watch out, though. The power head might push a lot of debris up through the gravel and further cloud the tank water. Avoid doing this when there is so much debris under the plates.
Setting up the power heads to push water down through the tubes and up through the gravel is called Reverse Under Gravel Filter (RUGF) and can be used in conjunction with a real filter to remove debris from the tank. I never had much luck doing it this way, though, and removed all the UGF plates from all the tanks.

[55gal]

WOW! be back after digesting this. Thank you.