Very fat shubunkin! Advice please!

[SophieJaynne]

Hi there, my son has two shubunkins, one is very streamline, the other is very fat! They were both slim when I got them but then after about 6 months one of them bloated up. I thought this was just because she was a female and just maturing, but now my mum has been round and seen it and has made me wonder is she might be egg bound or something instead?

The shubunkin is symmetrical, I knew to check this, and she does not have the pinecone effect that usually occurs with dropsy. Sometimes her sides look almost square (like a molly does before they give birth). But her back is bent over her huge abdomen just before her tail and this worries me...she is very alert and feeds well (I feed them every 2-3 days and water parameters are fine) but sometimes when she is feeding from the top and goes too vertical in order to suck the food from the top, she overbalances slightly. She has no problems manouvering about the tank, so I dont think there is a gill bladder problem, but I just want to make sure she is just female, and not sick as my mum believes!

Any advice much appreciated!!

Thanks, Sophie

[chefkeith]

Can you show us a picture of the fish?

One problem is that the fish should be fed daily, not every 2-3 days.

Feeding daily isn't just important to the fish, but it is also important for the filtration bacteria. The biological filtration needs a steady source of ammonia, otherwise the bacteria will not thrive.

Also, please read the announcement sticky at the top of the forum. We really need more information about the aquarium and the fish.

[SophieJaynne]

Thanks for pointing out my feeding error - I was told before that it was best to feed the only a few times a week as fish are scavengers and it is good for them to do this. After reading the sticky post I have now been feeding all my fish small amounts morning, evening and before I go to bed. So thankyou.

I am almost 100% sure this fish is ill, and not just female as I had previously thought. She is in an Aqua 40 with another shebunkin the same size and a dojo. I realise this tank will become too small and the back up plan was to transfer them to my dads pond (more of a lake actually with all the descendants of the fish we won from the fair as children). Is this a safe thing to do for the fish, environment wise? I know its not ideal, but we rescued these fish from a friend who kept them in a tiny fish bowl and the Aqua 40 was the best I could do for them.

I have taken pics of the fat shebunkin - hope they come out ok and you can help me!
http://s658.photobucket.com/albums/uu30 ... g&newest=1
http://s658.photobucket.com/albums/uu30 ... g&newest=1
http://s658.photobucket.com/albums/uu30 ... g&newest=1

[SophieJaynne]

As you can see (hopefully!) the fish isn't symetrical, she was, but she seems to be very very slowly becoming more uneven. This swelling has occured over, I would say, the last 9 months or so.

[mickthefish]

Sophie, sorry pet but can't see the pics.

mick

[mickthefish]

seen em now,
has this fish always had a similar shape just not as big as it is now?
it looks like it's a throwback from an oranda but with all the markings of a shub.

mick

[SophieJaynne]

I wonder why that is...the album is public and when I click on the links it comes up. What does it say when you click on it mick?

[helen nightingale]

on photobucket, where it says "share image", if you copy and paste the IMG code, the one at the bottom, you can see the pictures in the thread like this.

sorry i dont know much about goldfish. they do seem to come in all sorts of strange shapes though. Hopefully Mick is right, and its just a throwback from its breeding and not sick.

do they have any plants or veggies that they can eat? they would probably enjoy that. somebody has told you some very odd information about feeding fish!!!!

[SophieJaynne]

Thanks guys - yeah I don't know much about goldfish either! When we got this fish it was shaped exactly like the other one in the tank, which is still slim. When she feeds from the top she is really struggling with her balance - she flips over then kind of struggles for half a second before trying again, almost like her belly is floating to the top from under her. This is the only time this happens, her balance is fine when she is just swimming about.

[mickthefish]

there is something abnormal with it, but for the life of me i can't tell you what.
sorry

mick

[Diana]

There are many things that come to mind here, none are good news.

Lopsided swelling, grew over 9 months, sounds most like an internal tumor. Nothing you can do about it, when the fish is in distress, euthanize her (him?)

If it had come up over a shorter period of time (days or a week) I would suspect eggs. Sometimes this is slightly asymmetrical. 9 months is a long time for a fish to be carrying eggs.

Dropsy can be confined to the abdominal area, and the swelling is fluid accumulating. This can show up over time (though 9 months is a LONG time). The problem is the cause. Who knows? Might be some sort of bacterial or viral infection, or some other cause. Difficult to know how to treat if you do not know what you are treating. Also most infections do not go on for 9 months. You can treat for Dropsy: Add to the water 1 tablespoon of salt (sodium chloride) and 1/2 tablespoon of Epsom salt per gallon. This is a lot of salt and epsom salt, you might add it over a period of 3 days. Dissolve 1 teaspoon of salt and 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom salt per gallon in some water and add it to the tank slowly over the course of the day. Next day the same. Next day the same. This will result in a Tablespoon per gallon of salt and 1/2 tablespoon per gallon of Epsom salt. When you do water changes add these to the new water at that rate. (Metric: roughly, there are 4 liters in one gallon. The recipe was at an American site, so I suppose the gallon is the American gallon, but I do not see that there is that much difference in this case. Use 3/4 teaspoons of salt and 3/8 teaspoons of Epsom salt per liter as the full dose, 1/4 teaspoon of salt and 1/8 teaspoon of Epsom salt per liter, each day for 3 days.)

The one disease that is slow moving and can cause symptoms of Dropsy is Mycobacteriosis. This is also called Fish Tuberculosis. Here is more info about this disease:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM055

I lean toward the tumor, since it is asymmetrical.
I would treat for Dropsy with salt and Epsom salt, because it is an easy treatment. If there is a combination of tumor and dropsy this will help relieve some of the symptoms of the dropsy.
I would handle the tank as if the fish has Mycobacteriosis, for my own safety. Strict quarantine, and wash your hands whenever you stick your hands in the water. Absolutely do not put your hands in the water with an open cut. Do not share equipment among the other tanks.

As for moving these fish to a pond. Hmm... Mycobacteriosis is not very contagious, but if this one fish has it, the others have been exposed. The only way to know for sure is an autopsy of the sick fish. This can be a bit expensive, but this is the only way to know. If you add the other fish to the pond from this tank they could carry Mycobacteriosis with them. On the other hand, they (the pond fish) may have already been exposed to this disease in the hatchery, and perhaps carry a low level of infection anyway.

[SophieJaynne]

Thankyou Diana. After reading more about mycobacteriosis I have noticed there are alot of symtoms present in my fish. I hope I'm wrong though. I have managed to get hold of some epsom salts (now that was a hunt and a half!) and will begin treating the tank for dropsy tomorrow.

I was wondering - seeing as the other shebunkin and the dojo have shared the tank with this one for about 18 months - is it worth quaranteening the one in question as surely the others are already exposed? Obviously I will be investing in new equipment so as not to contaminate my tropical tank though.

[Diana]

The transmission of Mycobacteriosis seems to happen the most when the sick fish dies and others eat it. Still, if you can quarantine this one any treatment you do can be more concentrated to cure whatever problem this Shubunkin has. I have heard of treatments that include Kanamycin, and an Ultra Violet Sterilizer. I do not know if the Kanamycin will actually cure the fish, or simply stop the reproduction (and possible spread) of the bacteria. The UV sterilizer certainly is not killing anything inside the fish, so I am not sure how it helps, unless it is stopping transmission of Mycobacteriosis and other possible infectious things. Then the fish can fight back, with less things trying to infect him.
I would certainly remove the Loach and not expose this one to high levels of salt or Epsom salt.

[dlenn]

That's a lovely fish btw (whatever size/shape it is). The shape is very reminiscient of my first goldfish who I now know was sick, but we didn't know.

Whilst I can't help with the exact diagnosis, as already said it could be a tunour, kidney problem or something else.

My fish also had a swim bladder problem which could be causing the 'wobbling'.

To determine the sex female Goldfish usually have a small flap of skin (an outie) at their anus.

Let us know how it goes.