Odd Kuhli behavior

[IlOutfitter]

Hi, new here, been searching the site for a solid lead on why kuhlis swim in tight circles horizontally and roll over on their backs?

I got 3 kuhlis

55 gallon tank

Ph is a little high but never fluctuates, no salt, levels are normal safe.

its live plants, has premium play sand for a 3" thick layer on top of 2" of flourite, two filters 1 penguin 330 1 penguin 250, no air injection, had CO2 but I removed that from the equation. water change was done on sunday evening.

temp is at 78/80, has 67 watts of light @ 6500K temp. nothing has changed for them recently but the tank size, I removed them from a 26g bowfront monday night to go into the 55 with the rest of the fish they were with in the 26g before the 55 was up.

55 was established with all bacteria rich rocks and plants, 4 filter pads in 3 filters, 2 other kuhlis( well I am assuming 2 havnt seen the 3rd one in a while but it wasnt in the 26 when I drained and cleaned it) are doing fine.

Im lost, oh he is breathing HEAVY as well and does lay out in the open with all lights on and other fish out and swimming.


Thanks in advance.

[Diana]

Did you check that the GH, KH and TDS are the same? The recent move suggests that there may be a water chemistry issue, and the fish is having some osmoregulatory issues.
The swimming in circles, including odd orientation is not uncommon in healthy Loaches, and, by itself, nothing to worry about. Hanging out in front and heavy breathing is not good, and swimming at odd angles in conjunction with the heavy breathing, can be a problem.

3" of sand on top of 2" of Flourite is too deep. You can use Flourite with no topping, or a cosmetic topping of barely an inch is plenty, if you like the looks of the sand.

[IlOutfitter]

Did you check that the GH, KH and TDS are the same? The recent move suggests that there may be a water chemistry issue, and the fish is having some osmoregulatory issues.
The swimming in circles, including odd orientation is not uncommon in healthy Loaches, and, by itself, nothing to worry about. Hanging out in front and heavy breathing is not good, and swimming at odd angles in conjunction with the heavy breathing, can be a problem.

3" of sand on top of 2" of Flourite is too deep. You can use Flourite with no topping, or a cosmetic topping of barely an inch is plenty, if you like the looks of the sand.

Im sorry, I wasnt clearer before on the substrate. the flourite is dead on, I am getting to be heavily planted and that 2" is what is recommended for the plants I will be keeping. The sand goes from 1" around the entire tank, I have a rockbed that is built up with sand and rock for kuhli fun.

Asthetically it looks deep but thats just the side build up, I tried to line the front and hide the flourite.

I have cories too and have heard conflicting stories on barbell equipped fish and substrate, I had sand in the 26g as well, had 20 pounds in there, I have about 50 pounds in the 55. Im not that far off on depth from the last tank. I check everything and my alkalinity is the only thing high and thats around 200ppm but the PH doesnt fluctuate at all, the readings are between a 8.2 and 8.4 and all the fish have been in that PH since I got them, The kuhli I think is the oldest one is the one having the issue, Ive had him for 2 years.

[Diana]

3" total is fine.
200 ppm alkalinity can also be reported as 11 German degrees of hardness. This is high, so I would expect the pH to be well into the alkaline side of neutral, and be quite stable.

Are the readings the same in all the tanks? If you moved the Kuhlies recently from a tank with different GH and KH this would explain this problem.

[IlOutfitter]

The one is fine this morning, got out here dark enough and got my headcount done. I am almost certain the water is identical, same water used to set and do WC's on he old tank this time.


It honestly looked like a seizure.

did a PH this morning, same KH and Ph is still at 8.2-8.4 nothing changes really.

[Diana]

In that case I do not know what could be causing it.
Perhaps stress? Loaches in general, and Kuhlies especially do swim in circles like that, and do not much care whether they are up-side-down or sideways.
That one fish is doing this and the others are not says they are different individuals, and perhaps this one is simply more prone to extreme reactions to stress. The heavy breathing can be a reaction to stress.

Keeping the water quality very good will help, and not changing the GH, KH or pH will help. Other than that, if it is stress from the move, giving the fish time to get used to the new tank is all you can do.

[IlOutfitter]

It didnt come out to gorge last night with the other fish( yes there is set feeding times and they all know it, if im late they are looking at me like "hey guy, get some food over here" so they all come out and feed at the top from the worm cup and the kuhlis do join them.

I gotta plant some new plants this evening when they are unpacked and alum dipped I will move some rocks and see if I cant get a headcount on em.

This is the first time ive seen this, I mean it layed in my hand without freaking out usually I cant get to em, however its the same one that I had to net, the others hitched a ride in their trunk house unknowing to me, it was very easy to catch the kuhli, it was the first fish out of the tank into acclimation

[Louise]

I just lost all my Kuhlis (6 of them) and they all had similar symptoms. The odd floating and seizures. I'm still not sure what happened and never got to test the suggestions I got on this board as they all died

I miss them very much and I really want to get more but I'm scared of killing those too.

Now my problem in part was when I did a water change but in the end I could also grab them with no trouble at all. Very sad

I'll be watching this post closely and good luck!

Louise

[IlOutfitter]

I havnt gotten into the tank yet but I will tonight, I hope if it did die its not rotting in there, thats all I need right now.

[IlOutfitter]

Ok, its still alive, it swims upright and on its side and upside down and it was curling around itself today, It looks VERY skinny but it really wasnt gasping for air, it was gnawing on a piece of shrimp pellet.


At this point I am going to keep it around till I notice deeper odd behavior then I will put it in the iced water.

[Diana]

The coiling around sounds bad. Too much of the swimming in odd orientations combined with the other symptoms sounds bad.
Your description of 'seizure-like behavior' sounds familiar, but from a long time ago, another site. Someone had a Dwarf Gourami that seemed to have seizures, not related to water changes, not new in the tank, no other symptoms, other fish healthy. Never found a reason, but the seizures got worse, coming more frequently and lasting longer. Eventually the owner euthanazed the fish. I know there is a sticky here that covers this.

[IlOutfitter]

give me some time and Ill get up some pics and maybe be able to find some video of it coiling.


I think I am going to give him till tuesday, do a WC and get a few more kuhlis and some OTO's or MTS's to keep it real clean.

[Diana]

Otocinclus and Malaysian Trumpet Snails are not going to keep the tank 'clean' in the sense that may help the problem with the Kuhlie Loaches. The 'clean' that I am talking about is reducing the toxins such as nitrate in the water.

Otos, MTS and other algae eating animals will reduce the algae. This may be clean in the sense that you can see through the glass better, but the algae is helping to remove nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate). When you add more animals to the tank you are increasing the bioload, so there is more ammonia and so on in the water, and reducing the biological filtration when they eat the algae that is helping to remove these things.

I am not saying do not get Otos and algae eating snails, but simply not to think of them a 'cleaners' in the same sense as 'nitrogen removers'.

Not directed at you, Outfitter, but in general:
By a similar argument do not think of Cories and other bottom feeding fish as 'tank cleaners'. Yes, they remove a lot of fallen food, but they contribute to the bioload, too. If there is that much fallen food, that the fish keeper 'has to' get a bottom feeder to 'clean up' then the fish keeper is over feeding. Get Cories, Loaches and other bottom fish because you like them, and do not over feed the tank.
I just heard this argument the other day: A new fish keeper was advised that 'Cories do not count toward the bioload because they clean the tank' HUH? They use oxygen, generate CO2 and ammonia, produce poop, and in other ways act exactly like a fish. Why are they not part of the bioload?
(sorry- rant over)

[IlOutfitter]

The cories are there for bottom cleaning as well as the cories, thats jsut to keep the debris on top of the sand way down, the algae im talking about is on the plants themselves and I know that with no fish that particullary clean the leaves is in the tank now.

I keep algae gorwing to a degree but when it gets thick id like to not cross that road again.

I got sand and such so the MTS's were thought of for the sand turning issues, however I heard they are not good to have in a tank so thats what made me think OTO for the plants.


I did get pics, basically this thing is doing headstands as well, literally burying his face in he sand and sticking the tail straight to the heavens.

On the bioload note, kuhlis and cories produce far less waste then say the guppies or platies do. Ive just noticed that with a majority of tropical fish is that their bioloads can be considered for 50-75% of the size of the fish, some like fancy goldfish are around 200% bioload per fish.

I know my bioload is under control, Ive got 90 gallons of filtration on a 55 gallon tank, 3 filters running constantly to keep up with the guppies due to their bioload.

If I am wrong correct me but I think on the logical side not the OMG what if side and owning lots of fish from neon tetras to 3# cichlids and pleco's. I always go the safer then sorry route.

[Diana]

Fish produce waste based on their mass. A fat fish produces more waste than the same length fish that is slender. Some species seem to create more than average amount of waste compared to similar sized and shaped fish of other species.
Cories tend to be chunky little guys, most other fish of the same length have less mass. I would not think of Cories as less waste producers than a same-length Guppy or Tetra.

MTS do stir the sand. I have them in most of my tanks. They are not bad unless there are so many of them that they are contributing too much to the bioload. Such as having hundreds of them. Each snail needs oxygen and produces CO2 and other wastes. 'Each' times a hundred can get to be a bit much.

Yes, bottom feeding fish can be fun as well as functional. Many upper level fish will not take food off the bottom, so having fish that specifically look on the bottom for food is good.

Otos are about the best for cleaning the algae off the leaves. Most other algae eating fish are too heavy, or can scrape the leaves and damage them. Otos are a very good choice. I am simply pointing out they are part of the bioload as much as any other 1" fish: They require oxygen, they produce CO2 and ammonia, as well as solid waste. Similar to the bottom feeders: Yes, they serve a purpose, as well as interesting to watch. They do not count as a zero when you are talking about bioload in the tank.

I also have algae in most of my tanks. I prefer to keep the front glass clear, but am less concerned about algae on the rocks or driftwood, or on the other glass sides or back. In one tank (my brackish water tank) algae is the only plant that grows.