Ich dose question (the follow up doses)

[BotiaMaximus]

That's not Ich - it is something serious though - at a loss for words and busy at work but you need some immediate action.

I think it is bacterial.

You need Diana or chefkeith for this one, but I don't know if I would wait.

I would try doing a google search on the white blotch symptoms and see what that gets you. If you can find something definitive I would move quick on the recommended solution.

Best of luck!!!

[Holdstrong]

Thanks BM.

I might have jumped the gun on the fins and the "strings". I'm obsessing and that was what I was looking for due to my last disaster and that is what I thought I saw.

I'm home now and I really can't see it now. The loaches all came out to eat and play in the power head stream so I got a good look.

Mr loach with the 1 salt speck still has his 1 salt speck in the same spot, but other than that I don't see anything else.

If it werent for the cardinals dying (another one in the Q tank this morning) I would almost write this off as a weird spot that looks like ich but isn't.

[BotiaMaximus]

That 1 speck in the same location sounds funny also. An Ich spot can't last for this long to my knowledge.

Still sounds like something unusual is going on that needs investigating - the white blotchy thing is something and with your cardinals dying the possibility of them passing it to the other fish is real.

Hopefully one of the experts will get a look at your post fairly soon.

Any chance of you putting up a couple pictures for inspection??

[Diana]

Recap:
Saw flashing several days before.
Saw white spots.
Added Rid Ich May 18
See only 2 spots now, and these have been there since Day 1.
Current (new) symptoms: Cards with white blotch, twitchy, die.
Locahes with white stringy stuff trailing from fins.

Guesses, ideas:
Loaches (and other fish) produce excess slime coat when the skin is irritated. With Loaches is can stream off the fish as you are seeing, white stringy looking goo.
Cardinals: I do not know if they can get Neon Tetra Disease. Does the white area look deep in, like in the muscles, and with color loss?
If it is more like on the surface my first guess is Flex.
If it is lumpy, look at Lymphocystis. (Might also appear as those spots that are not moving on the Loaches)
If it is more stringy, it may be a fungus. Usually fungus grows on tissue already damaged for some reason, perhaps injury, or bacterial infection.

What I would do... Hmm...
Maybe Loaches are irritated by the medicine? If so, remove the medicine.
Maybe those last 2 spots are not Ich. If so, it is OK to remove the medicine, especially if it has been several days since you last saw any other spots. (give it 3 days since the last spots fell off)
With Cards in a separate tank I would treat, but I am not sure with what. If you tried something before when they seemed to have this and it worked, then repeat. If it did not work, then try something different.

[Holdstrong]

Recap:
Saw flashing several days before.
Saw white spots.
Added Rid Ich May 18
See only 2 spots now, and these have been there since Day 1.
Current (new) symptoms: Cards with white blotch, twitchy, die.
Locahes with white stringy stuff trailing from fins.

Thanks Diana.

A straight forward recap like this is helpful. Sometimes when you are in the middle of something like this it is hard to step back and look at things rationally. This helped.

I think it is very likely the stringyness I was seeing (if I was seeing it) was the slimecoat. I'm sure the fish are stressed out and I'm sure the meds have been bothering them.

I have no idea what to make of the cardinals or this last "ich spot" on 1 loach. Tetra Disease sounds spot on for what I saw with the dead cardinal (the white spot looked almost like the skin was dying), but I've read Cardinals are resistant to it.

I just did a large (45%ish) water change, and have decided not to dose for ich tonight.

Will observe tomorrow.

Oh, and I havent mentioned this, but I havent seen flashing in at least a week.

[chefkeith]

What part of the body is the white speck on?

Can you take a picture of it?

[Holdstrong]

I spoke too soon on the flashing. Saw some more tonight. Could be related to the big water change I guess.

The lone 'ich spot' is on the side of the loach, in the tan part of his stripes, right before the last black stripe.

I tried to take a few photos earlier today. None of them came out so great. I even took a video of this guy, but you cant see it in that.

Here is the best one I have. He is partially hidden behind my skinny loach and you see a lot of white specks in these photos, most of them are not really there... it is reflection or glass, etc. But I circled the actual one. Hope this helps.

http://townsandtrails.com/images/ich.jpg

[chefkeith]

This sounds like a different strain of ich. You haven't done anything wrong, but I'd switch medications to something less harsh. Look for Kordon's Ich Attack or Prevent Ich, these are organic ich treatments. You may have to treat the fish for up to 5 weeks.

Here's a quote from an article on Rid-ich
http://www.novalek.com/kordon/ridich/index.htm

"WHAT THE ALTERNATIVES ARE FOR TREATING ICH WHITE SPOT DISEASE
Particularly in larger aquariums, or with fishes sensitive to chemical treatment, the use of the chemical combination in Rid-Ich+ is not practical. There are a group of new Kordon treatments using organic herbal naphthaquinones that can be used instead of Rid-Ich+, all of which being highly effective against Ich white spot disease. These are Kordon's Ich Attack tm, Prevent Ich tm and Rid Fungus, all of which are patented products that are equally effective against Ich white spot disease. "


Here's a quote from an article about ich describing different strains-
http://www.novalek.com/kordon/articles/ich.htm

"The different species of Ich look alike in their little white spots, both in size and shape, but have different lengths of time in their life cycles when they are in the white spot stage. It is essentially impossible from general observation to know which species of Ich might be involved, and how long they are going to be in the white spot stage. Therefore, it takes patience in treating fishes for white spot Ich, because it can be weeks to more than a month of daily treatments to get rid of it. -- the amount of time required depending upon which species is attacking the fish. "

"The main observable difference between the species of white spot Ich are in the length of time that they are in the white spot stage, which in different species can be for about 4 or 5 days, or about one week, or two weeks, or three weeks, or up to a reported 32 days. The species with the white spot stage of about 4 or 5 days, or the other extreme of about 32 days are less encountered than those that are one to three weeks in the white spot stage. There is no known treatment for white spot Ich infections when they are in the white spot stage. Only during the short time of hours up to a few days when they are free swimming can they be eliminated. Therefore, the parasites in those white spots are impervious to treatments until they hatch out.

Also, be aware that the fishes can be fatally infected when no white spots are seen on the outside of the fish. They are infected with the kind of Ich that prefers being totally out of sight inside the mouth, gills and nostrils of the fish. These Ich are not seen until they venture onto the outside of the fish, which in such cases is often too late to save the fish. Treatment needs to start as soon as there is the suspicion that Ich white spot disease may be present. There are reports in the technical literature of Ich that remain in the mouths of fishes throughout all the stages of their life cycle. So they are never seen on the outside of the fish."

[Holdstrong]

Well that blows my mind. I really had no idea there were different types of ich - that is the first time I've heard it. I'm also surprised that they seem to suggest the 3-4 day type is less common than the 1 to 2 week type.

That seems to fit exactly what I am seeing.

I called the local petsmart (closest fish supply to me) and they have the herbal Prevent ich in stock.

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.j ... Id=2752417

I will be picking it up tomorrow and will consider resuming dosing of the tank with it. Have you heard of anyone who has had experiencing using the product?

[Diana]

Thanks for finding that chefkeith! Very informative!

[chefkeith]

It's a newer product. A few people I know of at Aquariacentral.com have used it on loaches with success.

[BotiaMaximus]

Is it possible to have multiple strains of Ich in the tank at the same time? It looks like in Holdstrong's earlier postings when treatment first started there was a rise and then decline in the amount of spots on the fish now down to the two stubborn spots?

[chefkeith]

Sure. It's not only possible, but it's probable that some Fish Stores have many different ich strains going on at once in their tanks. Especially if there is no knowledge of it to prevent it from happening. The main problem is that there is no control point for disease prevention in the fish trade industry.

The top places in the food industry practice something called HACCP (pronounced Ha Sip) , which means Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point. It's a great way to prevent food born illness from occurring. I learned to run HACCP programs when I was in culinary school. This is one reason why I'm on the extreme side of caution or even paranoia when it comes to disease prevention in fish keeping. The main reason is because, due to ich, I've lost a few tanks full of my beloved loaches.


This is a reason why I think HHR 669 needs to be passed in the USA. The fish trade is heavily criticized for introducing invasive species to our waterways, not only that but they are spreading pathogenic diseases to our waterways also. Also the door is wide open for terrorists to attack us by infecting the pet trade industry with viruses or plagues. Just think of the movie "Outbreak". It can happen, but without a happy ending. Something we don't need. Sorry for going off topic.

[BotiaMaximus]

Thanks for the info Chef!

I know all about the invasive species problem - I have cane toads all over the damn place, and everything running amok in the Everglades!!

I was hoping to add just a couple more loaches to my 75 but it has taken so long and no healthy ones to be found that I'm calling the tanks stocked and not adding anyone else. I did the salt treatment from your page as a PM and everything is good - no sense in playing with fire now.

Holdstrong's case here could mean the FAQ on Ich treatment will need to be updated with the new information on these other strains and possible time-tables needed to wipe them out.

*****

Holdstrong - I hope this new info and new treatment gets you some positive results eradicating this problem from your tank!!

[chefkeith]

Either way, the ich sticky is long overdue for an overhaul.

Things I'd add-
*The life cycle needs to be corrected. (trophonts don't multiply)
*Need a warning that large water changes can cause osmotic shock. (I recommend a TDS meter)
*Stress the importance of daily gravel vacs.
*Get any loach caves or hidey holes off of the gravel.
*Adding micron filtration can help
* Prophylactic treatments for new fish should be discussed. (important in large aquaria)
*A safe procedure for a salt treatment.
*discuss the tougher ich strains.
*updated treatments
*the white spots that aren't ich
*list of things not to do (like mixing antibiotics with coppersafe)
*links to ich articles