This morning when i checked my tank I noticed that i had lost several fish. Several turned out to be 11!
5 Neons, 2 cherry bards, 2 silver tips and both my guppies.
Very distressing - however i am really worried about the 4 clown loaches and the two Plecs I have left.
One CL in particular is now on his own lying on the bottom of the tank. Unusual as they always stay together. The others are hiding as always, so I do not know how they are doing.
I reckoned a water change and raising the oxygen levels would be a good place to start. I've added a water pump into the tank to allow a greater flow of oxygen.
Levels were as follows before water change:
PH 6.4
KH 3-6
GH >16
NO3 250
NO2 1
After the partial change levels are as follows:
PH 6.8
KH 3
GH >16 (though slightly lower)
NO3 250
NO2 1
My real worry is that one of the CLs is rapidly moving gills, lying still. Another cherry barb has gone too.
Any help would be appreciated, i feel useless.
lost 11 fish this morning can you help?
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Am I reading your test results correctly?
Nitrate is 250 ppm?
This is a toxic level!
That you are still seeing some Nitrite suggests that the nitrifying bacteria are not all dead, but they are greatly weakened by the low pH.
Do you have an ammonia test?
If your tap water has the same levels of GH, KH and pH then I would do 50% water changes AM and PM until you can get the nitrate under 20 ppm and keep it there.
In a tank with these sorts of readings I would expect ammonia to be climbing, too. As long as the pH stays on the acidic side of neutral Ammonia is mostly in the NH4+ form, and is less toxic.
If your tap water GH, KH and pH is different from the tank then the solution is a longer, slow process because changing water chemistry is hard on the fish, and a rise in pH while there is still ammonia in the tank can be deadly.
This tank is likely suffering from Old Tank Syndrome. The best, safest cure is a long, slow change back to optimum conditions. The fish have been living like this long enough to adapt. An instant change back to 'perfect' would be too much for them.
At low pH the ammonia is not toxic. It is in the form of NH4+.
Here is what I would do: (and why)
FIRST WEEK:
1) 10% daily (or twice daily) water changes. Use a dechlorinator that locks up ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Prime, Amquel Plus... (Any larger water change creates too big a water chemistry change)
2) Zeolite in the filters. Get 3 bags: every day swap out one bag and rejuvenate it overnight in salty water, then soak in fresh water (RO or Distilled is best) You will always have 2 bags in the tank, and one in rejuvenation. (Zeolite removes ammonia, but gets filled up. It is cheapest to buy a large jar of it and cut up some nylon stockings as bags.)
3) If there is over 1.5 watts of light add all the plants you can. Fast growing stuff like Anacharis is best. (Plants are the fastest ammonia removers. But under 1.5 watts they are more likely to rot than to help. If fish eat them, not to worry, just feed the fish less. Plants are low nitrogen compared to high protein fish food, thus contributing less ammonia waste to the problem)
4) Deep and thorough gravel vac as much as you can this week. (Decomposing gunk is lowering the pH and contributing to ammonia problem) 10% water change on a small tank does not present a good chance to vacuum the substrate much in any one session, but ultimately you can get over the whole tank bottom once this week.
5) Find a source of nitrifying bacteria, such as Tetra Safe Start or Dr. Tim's One and Only. (Do not be fooled by other 'bacteria in a bottle' products. Wrong ingredients.) Other sources of ntrifying bacteria include other cycled tanks. You could add some cycled floss or sponge to this ailing tank, but the bacteria will not grow very well if the pH is under 6.5. I would not add it this week. If you have other tanks, then do not take so much media that they start having problems, too.
6) Feed less. Half what was fed before. Feed low protein foods if the fish can handle them. (This is the Garbage In = Garbage Out principle. less GI = less GO.)
7) Clean the filter gently, in water removed from the tank. Whatever nitrifying bacteria are still there could get killed with chlorine or chloramines in the tap water.
By the end of the first week the ammonia will be significantly lower, the pH slightly higher, and the nitrate will be coming down. Gravel is much cleaner. O2 levels are rising, benefiting fish and nitrifying bacteria.
SECOND WEEK
1) Do daily 20% water changes, and deep gravel vacs. Also, clean the filter. The larger water changes are going to be altering the pH a bit more, but are removing a lot more nitrate. As the nitrifying bacteria get going again removing nitrate is very important.
2) Add whatever nitrifying bacteria you have found. If you use one of the bottled products you will skip water changes for a few days so the bacteria can anchor to the filter, then no more gravel vacs the rest of the week. Do not clean any filter for a week. (Allow the Nitrospiros bacteria to settle in the filters and gravel without removing it or knocking it off the gravel or filter media.) If you have added some cycled sponge or floss from a healthy tank then continue gravel vacs and water changes.
3) Continue swapping out the zeolite bags, but if the ammonia tests show that the ammonia is a lot lower, just swap out one bag every other day. The nitrifying bacteria need ammonia to eat. By removing it with zeolite you are starving the bacteria. It takes several days for the bacteria to settle in and really get going on the ammonia, though, so keep the zeolite going this week. Might still need daily replacement.
5) Continue feeding the fish significantly less food. If they will eat vegetables or plants this is better.
After the second week I will expect the ammonia to be gone or almost gone. The nitrifying bacteria might be having a hard time. Be patient. It will get going soon. The pH may not be the same as the tap water yet, but it is OK if it is a little higher with the ammonia getting so low. Continue using a water conditioner that locks up ammonia, nitrite and nitrate so the fish are protected.
WEEK THREE
1) Clean filter.
2) Continue with daily water changes, but if the pH is closer to the tap water then increase them to 25%.
3) Continue deep gravel vacs.
4) Decrease the use of zeolite. Monitor the ammonia. If the plants and bacteria are handling the ammonia, then stop using zeolite. If the plants and bacteria are not up to it yet, keep using the zeolite, but perhaps only swap out the bags once each bag this week.
By the end of week three the aquarium is likely getting back into shape. pH is much closer to the tap water pH (and KH and GH are matching the tap, too). Nitrifying bacteria and plants ought to be handling all or almost all the ammonia. You might be seeing nitrite. If it is over 1 ppm then add 1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gallons of water. Nitrate may still be too high, though not anywhere near 250 ppm, and will be getting worse as the bacteria establish themselves. Plants will be very helpful here. On the other hand the nitrate will be dropping significantly because of all the water changes.
FOURTH WEEK:
If the pH, KH and GH of tap and tank match then do as large a gravel vac and water changes as needed to really get the nitrates down.
Goal: Ammonia and Nitrite will ultimately read 0 ppm, but if the tank is still cycling try to keep the ammonia < .25 ppm, and the nitrite under 1 ppm.
Try to get the nitrate under 20 ppm. Lower is better.
If the tap water pH, GH and KH are not close enough to the tank to permit larger water changes then do more frequent ones, perhaps 30% daily. It is also a good idea to resume deep gravel vacs to continue removing debris.
Eliminate zeolite.
Offer the fish a little more food if they really need it, but people who allow a tank to reach this condition are often over feeding anyway. Perhaps the new diet really is better, or perhaps not. Alter as needed.
Nitrate is 250 ppm?
This is a toxic level!
That you are still seeing some Nitrite suggests that the nitrifying bacteria are not all dead, but they are greatly weakened by the low pH.
Do you have an ammonia test?
If your tap water has the same levels of GH, KH and pH then I would do 50% water changes AM and PM until you can get the nitrate under 20 ppm and keep it there.
In a tank with these sorts of readings I would expect ammonia to be climbing, too. As long as the pH stays on the acidic side of neutral Ammonia is mostly in the NH4+ form, and is less toxic.
If your tap water GH, KH and pH is different from the tank then the solution is a longer, slow process because changing water chemistry is hard on the fish, and a rise in pH while there is still ammonia in the tank can be deadly.
This tank is likely suffering from Old Tank Syndrome. The best, safest cure is a long, slow change back to optimum conditions. The fish have been living like this long enough to adapt. An instant change back to 'perfect' would be too much for them.
At low pH the ammonia is not toxic. It is in the form of NH4+.
Here is what I would do: (and why)
FIRST WEEK:
1) 10% daily (or twice daily) water changes. Use a dechlorinator that locks up ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Prime, Amquel Plus... (Any larger water change creates too big a water chemistry change)
2) Zeolite in the filters. Get 3 bags: every day swap out one bag and rejuvenate it overnight in salty water, then soak in fresh water (RO or Distilled is best) You will always have 2 bags in the tank, and one in rejuvenation. (Zeolite removes ammonia, but gets filled up. It is cheapest to buy a large jar of it and cut up some nylon stockings as bags.)
3) If there is over 1.5 watts of light add all the plants you can. Fast growing stuff like Anacharis is best. (Plants are the fastest ammonia removers. But under 1.5 watts they are more likely to rot than to help. If fish eat them, not to worry, just feed the fish less. Plants are low nitrogen compared to high protein fish food, thus contributing less ammonia waste to the problem)
4) Deep and thorough gravel vac as much as you can this week. (Decomposing gunk is lowering the pH and contributing to ammonia problem) 10% water change on a small tank does not present a good chance to vacuum the substrate much in any one session, but ultimately you can get over the whole tank bottom once this week.
5) Find a source of nitrifying bacteria, such as Tetra Safe Start or Dr. Tim's One and Only. (Do not be fooled by other 'bacteria in a bottle' products. Wrong ingredients.) Other sources of ntrifying bacteria include other cycled tanks. You could add some cycled floss or sponge to this ailing tank, but the bacteria will not grow very well if the pH is under 6.5. I would not add it this week. If you have other tanks, then do not take so much media that they start having problems, too.
6) Feed less. Half what was fed before. Feed low protein foods if the fish can handle them. (This is the Garbage In = Garbage Out principle. less GI = less GO.)
7) Clean the filter gently, in water removed from the tank. Whatever nitrifying bacteria are still there could get killed with chlorine or chloramines in the tap water.
By the end of the first week the ammonia will be significantly lower, the pH slightly higher, and the nitrate will be coming down. Gravel is much cleaner. O2 levels are rising, benefiting fish and nitrifying bacteria.
SECOND WEEK
1) Do daily 20% water changes, and deep gravel vacs. Also, clean the filter. The larger water changes are going to be altering the pH a bit more, but are removing a lot more nitrate. As the nitrifying bacteria get going again removing nitrate is very important.
2) Add whatever nitrifying bacteria you have found. If you use one of the bottled products you will skip water changes for a few days so the bacteria can anchor to the filter, then no more gravel vacs the rest of the week. Do not clean any filter for a week. (Allow the Nitrospiros bacteria to settle in the filters and gravel without removing it or knocking it off the gravel or filter media.) If you have added some cycled sponge or floss from a healthy tank then continue gravel vacs and water changes.
3) Continue swapping out the zeolite bags, but if the ammonia tests show that the ammonia is a lot lower, just swap out one bag every other day. The nitrifying bacteria need ammonia to eat. By removing it with zeolite you are starving the bacteria. It takes several days for the bacteria to settle in and really get going on the ammonia, though, so keep the zeolite going this week. Might still need daily replacement.
5) Continue feeding the fish significantly less food. If they will eat vegetables or plants this is better.
After the second week I will expect the ammonia to be gone or almost gone. The nitrifying bacteria might be having a hard time. Be patient. It will get going soon. The pH may not be the same as the tap water yet, but it is OK if it is a little higher with the ammonia getting so low. Continue using a water conditioner that locks up ammonia, nitrite and nitrate so the fish are protected.
WEEK THREE
1) Clean filter.
2) Continue with daily water changes, but if the pH is closer to the tap water then increase them to 25%.
3) Continue deep gravel vacs.
4) Decrease the use of zeolite. Monitor the ammonia. If the plants and bacteria are handling the ammonia, then stop using zeolite. If the plants and bacteria are not up to it yet, keep using the zeolite, but perhaps only swap out the bags once each bag this week.
By the end of week three the aquarium is likely getting back into shape. pH is much closer to the tap water pH (and KH and GH are matching the tap, too). Nitrifying bacteria and plants ought to be handling all or almost all the ammonia. You might be seeing nitrite. If it is over 1 ppm then add 1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gallons of water. Nitrate may still be too high, though not anywhere near 250 ppm, and will be getting worse as the bacteria establish themselves. Plants will be very helpful here. On the other hand the nitrate will be dropping significantly because of all the water changes.
FOURTH WEEK:
If the pH, KH and GH of tap and tank match then do as large a gravel vac and water changes as needed to really get the nitrates down.
Goal: Ammonia and Nitrite will ultimately read 0 ppm, but if the tank is still cycling try to keep the ammonia < .25 ppm, and the nitrite under 1 ppm.
Try to get the nitrate under 20 ppm. Lower is better.
If the tap water pH, GH and KH are not close enough to the tank to permit larger water changes then do more frequent ones, perhaps 30% daily. It is also a good idea to resume deep gravel vacs to continue removing debris.
Eliminate zeolite.
Offer the fish a little more food if they really need it, but people who allow a tank to reach this condition are often over feeding anyway. Perhaps the new diet really is better, or perhaps not. Alter as needed.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Updated readings
Diana, many thanks for your detailed reply. Just an update on readings:
Ammonia 0
PH 7 - 7.5 (a more detailed PH tester will be obtained I think)
NO2 0.5 mg/l
NO3 20 mg/l
I also gather that NO3 readings can be thrown by a high NO2.
I'll check the tap water and see how close these numbers are. CL still unhappy.
Tonic Salts any use?
Ammonia 0
PH 7 - 7.5 (a more detailed PH tester will be obtained I think)
NO2 0.5 mg/l
NO3 20 mg/l
I also gather that NO3 readings can be thrown by a high NO2.
I'll check the tap water and see how close these numbers are. CL still unhappy.
Tonic Salts any use?
Yes, nitrate tests are not always reliable when there is nitrite in the water.
These numbers look a LOT better than the first post.
'Tonic salts' are a very expensive way of adding useless stuff. (well, not totally useless, but not of any benefit here)
When nitrite shows in the tank add table salt (sodium chloride) at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons. When you do water changes add this amount back based on the size of the water changes: if you do a 10 gallon water change then add .5 teaspoon to the new water. When the nitrite test reads 0 ppm quit adding the salt.
Keep up the water changes, but small, frequent, rather that too large.
Do the tests of the tap water GH, KH and pH match the tank?
If so, then larger water changes are OK.
Do you have an ammonia test? When there is a problem like this you do not want to raise the pH into the alkaline range without knowing what the ammonia level is in the tank. Ammonia is less toxic when the pH is acidic. Raising the pH into the alkaline side of neutral will alter some of the ammonia to the NH3 form, which is more toxic.
These numbers look a LOT better than the first post.
'Tonic salts' are a very expensive way of adding useless stuff. (well, not totally useless, but not of any benefit here)
When nitrite shows in the tank add table salt (sodium chloride) at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons. When you do water changes add this amount back based on the size of the water changes: if you do a 10 gallon water change then add .5 teaspoon to the new water. When the nitrite test reads 0 ppm quit adding the salt.
Keep up the water changes, but small, frequent, rather that too large.
Do the tests of the tap water GH, KH and pH match the tank?
If so, then larger water changes are OK.
Do you have an ammonia test? When there is a problem like this you do not want to raise the pH into the alkaline range without knowing what the ammonia level is in the tank. Ammonia is less toxic when the pH is acidic. Raising the pH into the alkaline side of neutral will alter some of the ammonia to the NH3 form, which is more toxic.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Tap water
Tap water:
PH 6.4
KH 6
GH 3
So the tap water is much softer I guess.
Forgot to say that I do have an ammonia test, hence the reading of 0 (zero) I got earlier today.
Cant say things look any brighter yet - one very sick CL - and my two plecs are very lethargic
PH 6.4
KH 6
GH 3
So the tap water is much softer I guess.
Forgot to say that I do have an ammonia test, hence the reading of 0 (zero) I got earlier today.
Cant say things look any brighter yet - one very sick CL - and my two plecs are very lethargic
sorry, I just did not see the ammonia, though you posted it clearly enough. This is good. It suggests the nitrifying bacteria are up to a good population and are dealing with the ammonia. The trace of nitrite suggests that something is going on, though.
There seems to be quite a difference in tap water and tank General Hardness.
Are these tests (GH and KH) also reported in ppm, (mg/l) or are they German degrees of hardness? The numbers seem to suggest they are dGH, and dKH. If they are ppm, then the hardness is not very far apart, and go ahead and do whatever water changes are needed to deal with the nitrogen problem. The following comments are based on the test results being reported as German degrees of hardness:
I would not do large water changes that result in a net change in GH of more than 1 degree lower per day. Fish have a hard time adjusting to lower mineral content in the water. Take about a month to lower the GH in the tank to match the tap water. Since the tap water is softer than the tank water this means doing water change in either of two ways:
a) Small, frequent water changes. Perhaps not as slow and small as suggested for 'old tank syndrome' but still, small changes to allow the GH to drop slowly until it matches the tap water. GH is a straight line value. You can compute how much a certain size water change with 3 degrees of GH in the new water will change the GH in the tank: A 10% water change will drop the GH from 16 degrees to 14.7 degrees. This is as large a drop as I would want to do in any one day. (Actually a bit much)
b) Adding something to the tap water to make it match the tank water for GH. I use Seachem Equilibrium or Barr's GH Booster for this purpose. These products are a blend of minerals that are designed to reconstitute reverse osmosis water to make it appropriate for the fish. If you add enough of either product so the new water is just a little softer you can do a much larger water change than if you used just tap water with its very low GH reading.
Lets say you wanted to do 30% water changes daily until the nitrite was showing 0 ppm. Mix the minerals with the tap water in a bucket or garbage can (depends on how big the tank is, and how much water you are preparing)
Day 1: Make the tap water read 13 degrees. Do a 30% water change. This will result in the net tank reading for GH = 15 degrees. (1 dGH change for today)
Day 2: Make the tap water read 12 dGH. Do a 30% water change. This will result in the tank reading 14 dGH, another 1 degree drop from the day before.
(Numbers have been rounded, use your test kit to confirm that the GH is not dropping too fast, but that the nitrite is kept under control until the nitrifying bacteria can catch up.)
Over time you would use less and less of the mineral blend until the tank water GH is much closer to the tap water GH.
Maintaining a GH of between 3-5 German degrees of hardness is just about right for soft water species.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
You need to figure out why the GH would climb so high. I'd guess that something is leaching, such as a sea shells, rocks, or gravel. Can you describe all the decor in the tank? Can you post a picture of the tank please?
What is your normal tank maintenance routine? How often do you usually do water changes?
What is your normal tank maintenance routine? How often do you usually do water changes?
Update on CLs
Have not seen them for two days now - looking inside their 'home' I can see that there is an abundance of some kind of white cloudy stuff around them. So have treated for slime/velvet...
Plecs are still really lethargic. Still doing a daily 10% water change in order to try and get things back on track.
I'll post a picture of tank later today, but i guess water and filter changes have been about every 4 weeks or so.
Plecs are still really lethargic. Still doing a daily 10% water change in order to try and get things back on track.
I'll post a picture of tank later today, but i guess water and filter changes have been about every 4 weeks or so.
Unless the tank is really understocked or heavily planted this is not enough.i guess water and filter changes have been about every 4 weeks or so
The high nitrate reading also says that this is not enough.
With each water change do as thorough a gravel vac as you can. I know that 10% WC does not allow for much of a gravel vac, but keep at it, a little more each day. Turn over the decorations and vacuum the gravel under them.
White cloudy stuff inside the fishes' hiding place sounds more like a dead fish.
Medication can slow the growth of the beneficial bacteria.
Do you have the test results for the tap water? How similar is it to the tank water for GH, KH and pH? The closer it gets the larger the water changes you can do.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
That is what I get for answering so many of these posts.
OK, so tap water is much softer than tank.
Keep up the small changes until the tank water is just a couple of degrees away from the tap water, then you will probably be safe with larger water changes.
The rough schedule laid out above ought to work:
10% water changes the first week, daily or twice daily, then bump it up to 20% the next week, then 30%. It is usually safe to lower the GH 1 degree at a time.
Monitor the tap (just in case the water company changes something) and tank.
By the third week the tap and tank ought to be a lot closer in hardness, and the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate issue ought to be under control.
Did you figure out if there is something in the tank to have raised the GH so much but not bother the KH?
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Current Water status
KH 2.8 dH
GH 12.32 dH
Nitrite 0.1 mg/l
Nitrate 20 mg/l
Ammonia 0
pH 6.5 - 7
I think these are much better readings. But please feel free to advise, I fguring on continuing the partial water changes daily until the GH comes back down closer to the tap water we have here.
Unfortunately i lost everyone in the tank except my two plecs. !6 fish in all, including my 4 clown loaches one of whom was my original fish from 3 years ago.
GH 12.32 dH
Nitrite 0.1 mg/l
Nitrate 20 mg/l
Ammonia 0
pH 6.5 - 7
I think these are much better readings. But please feel free to advise, I fguring on continuing the partial water changes daily until the GH comes back down closer to the tap water we have here.
Unfortunately i lost everyone in the tank except my two plecs. !6 fish in all, including my 4 clown loaches one of whom was my original fish from 3 years ago.
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