Ich dose question (the follow up doses)

Diana · Post by **Diana** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:52 pm

Smart way to get the salt into the tank: Drip it in. Works, even if you have to go to work.

Holdstrong · Post by **Holdstrong** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:29 am

Thanks for all the info on the salt. The remaining fish seem fine (except for skinny), best they have looked in awhile. But there is still some flashing and since it is possible I knocked the ich down, but not out, I am not taking any chances. I started a slow drip tonight.

Re: the salt, do I have to worry about my plants?

Re: skinny. He was finally weak enough to net without much hassle - and I think I saw one of the other loaches picking at him while he lay prone. I thought about putting him into the tank with the remaining tetras, but that tank has been like the tank of death this past week and I didn't want to do that to him - who knows what those dying fish left behind. So I set up a small 5 gallon with an airstone and a heater to try to make him comfortable. A few hours ago I was convinced he passed, couldn't see any breathing and he didn't flinch when touched. But when I came back to get him with a net he was moving again. Poor dude. If he pulls through this somehow I will be very happy.

Thanks again for all the help in this thread. I'll make sure to keep posting updates.

chefkeith · Post by **chefkeith** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:40 am

Depends on the plant. Salt affects some plants, such as crypts, but some have no problems with it.

Diana · Post by **Diana** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:41 am

That is a very high level of salt, and raising the level this fast is harder on plants. I think you will lose most of the existing leaves, but root masses and larger stems may come back.
I had the best luck with Java Fern in salt, but it took a month long acclimation.

If there are some specific plants you want to save, pull them out. A month or longer in a tank with no host will allow most parasites and diseases to die.
Take lots of cuttings, too.

Holdstrong · Post by **Holdstrong** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:20 pm

Thanks, I'll keep an eye on them. The plants I have are mostly low light, hardy species. Java and Anubias types. There are not too many and I am not too invested in them so I will let it play out.

Skinny died this morning. Poor dude. I am not sure he was long for this world to begin with... a year ago I Q'd him and threw just about every parasite med I could get my hands on at him. Flub, Prazi, metro... he was just a funny looking, mis-shappen guy. After none of the traditional parasite meds did a thing, I was convinced he had some deformity, was stunted, or had internal issues.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=17555 (unfortunately the photos and vids are down)

All of that combined with the meds from this month and whatever the hell is going on now was just too much for him. It is a bummer. He had a great personality.

chefkeith · Post by **chefkeith** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:29 pm

Sorry to hear it. I know how hard it can be to treat skinny loaches. I had a skinny clown off and on in quarantine for about 2 years. I was getting ready to euthenize him during his last quarantine visit, but he finally started getting better after I put him on a all bloodworm diet for several months. That was about a 1.5 years ago. Luckily he hasn't relapsed since. He's a real picky eater though and won't touch any processed fish foods, so I have to feed him fresh whole foods, like shrimp, cod, tilapia, clams, mussels, bloodworms, cucumber, spinach, ect.... He likes Martin's homemade fish food recipe too.

Holdstrong · Post by **Holdstrong** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:33 pm

Just updating.

In the hospital tank I lost all of the rasboras and cards - and 3 out of 4 serp tetras. The last one seems to be stabilizing.

The main tank, knock on wood, seems as normal as it has been in awhile.

I am 3 and a half days into salt treatment on both tanks. I am done adding the salt to the smaller/hospital tank. Have half a pitcher or so left to add to the big tank.

Haven't seen any ill affects to the treatment yet. Plants look ok still too. All 4 remaining loaches are eating, active, and playful. Rest of tank: Platies, Panda Cories, and barbs (the exact type eludes me right now) are all doing fine.

I did catch some flashing the other day, but nothing like before.

So, fingers crossed that the worst is over. I will finish adding the rest of the salt treatment to the big tank over the course of today. Let it sit was 10 days, and start sloooooowly changing it out.

chefkeith · Post by **chefkeith** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:56 pm

I haven't had any luck keeping Cardinal, Serp, or Neon Tetras in my loach tanks either. IME, they bring nothing but trouble. Back in 2005, I got some Cardinal tetras and put them in a 3 week quarantine and they showed no signs of ich. Then about a month later ich wiped out 31 of 32 of my beloved clowns.

I then got some new clowns, which included 6 - 6" wild caught clowns. I quarantined them all for about a month and did a prophylactic salt treatment on all the tanks. After the quarantine period was over the wild caught clowns ate most of the tetras. About a month later I noticed that all 6 of the wild caught clowns were emaciated. I treated them all for internal parasites, but it was too late for some and I euthanized 4 of them. Luckily, one clown recovered quickly after the 1st treatment of Prazipro, but the other clown took 2 long years of treatment before it recovered. All my other clowns have been disease free.

I suspect that the cardinal tetras were to blame for the ich and skinny disease outbreaks. I think it has something to do with mixing wild caught Amazon fish with wild caught Asian fish. The Asian fish have no immunity to the diseases that the Amazon fish bring (and vice versa).

tender · Post by **tender** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:12 pm

Chefkeith: you say you treated the emaciated clown for 2 years. Could you be a bit more specific as to how and with what you did this? I have a situation going on with one quite large clown that acts fine, but doesn`t gain weight despite meds and hard feeding.

Sorry for OT... hope it`s ok that I posted this question in this thread

Kind regards
Marius

chefkeith · Post by **chefkeith** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:59 pm

Over the 2 years, I had him in quarantine off and on. He had several treatments of Levamisole, Prazipro, and Maracyn I +II. He finally got better after I put him on a bloodworm diet. There might of been Prazipro in the water too, but I can't remember. The quarantine was in a 20 gallon tank that got daily water changes. It was over-flitered with a Filstar XP3 and a HOB filter.

Holdstrong · Post by **Holdstrong** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:35 am

Just an update.

Both tanks seem to have stabilized. Even my lone serp tetra, who was caked in white spots, seems to have recovered.

Remaining clowns are ok, if a bit skittish. They dont seem as apt to come out and play like they did when skinny was leading the way... but they "look" fine and are eating. And when I sneak up on them I see them acting fine. They also lost 12 some dither, so I am sure that is at play too.

Tomorrow is 10 days since I started the salt treatment.

I know I am getting ahead of myself, but I at least want to start thinking about how I restock these two tanks. My main questions have to do with good tankmates for the clowns, and advice on Q-tank setups and Q-tank treatments. But I will start new threads soon on those as I think that info will be useful to others and will be easier to find via search if it isnt buried on page 6 of this thread.

EDIT: I should add that the Ph of the tank is still steady at 7.2ish, and I haven't change the water in 10 days (due to the salt treatment). I suspect it does take some time for it to drop from the 8+ out of the tap but I am not sure if this happens naturally, or if it is due to the driftwood, or something else. I had a cup of water that was sitting for two weeks and I went to test it today and realized that my wife found it and dumped it. Doh! She didn't know I was experimenting. So I will leave another cup out and hide it better this time.

Diana · Post by **Diana** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:57 am

A 24 hour-48 hour pH test ought to show if the water from the tap will change.

You can do water changes even with salt in the tank. Simply prepare the new water with the same dose of salt as is in the tank.
If the current level is a teaspoon per gallon, then add 1 teaspoon of salt per 1 gallon of new water.

When it is time to remove the salt do this really slowly.
One way is to do small water changes, perhaps 10-15% twice a week.
Another way is to do larger water changes, but add 2/3 of the dose of salt for a couple of changes, then 1/3 dose for a few more changes.
Spread out the reduction of salt so that it takes a month or more.

Holdstrong · Post by **Holdstrong** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:41 am

Diana wrote:A 24 hour-48 hour pH test ought to show if the water from the tap will change.

It is definitely not changing after 24 or 48 hours.

But it definitely does change in that tank.

My thinking was that it takes longer for it to come down than the 2 days I tested... or that some combination of something in the tank brings it down.

Diana · Post by **Diana** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:37 pm

You can test each thing in the tank to see if it alters the pH by removing it from the tank and putting it in a bucket of water. In a small volume of water any change in pH should show up pretty fast.

Things that lower the pH are usually organic in origin, such as driftwood, peat moss, dead plant leaves and similar things.

Materials that remove the KH from the water may also show up as a lowering pH test. Certain substrates and filter inserts can do this.

chefkeith · Post by **chefkeith** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:09 pm

Does that clown still have a single white spot?

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