urgent fancy gold fish advice!

[madhatter28]

hi guys back again!
I have a problem I noticed today. 3 to 4 of my 8 fancy gold fish have started rubbing them selves on the pebbles just before they rub them self they swim a little bit fast. It stops & they don't do it again for long periods of time. There are no other signs that stand out.

Their are 8 of them in a 200L tank with an excellent rena external filter. I know there should be only 4 fish in 200L they are still small & have plenty room, but will divide them in to two groups of 4 at some point.
I feed them once daily with a mix of the usual ive food & pellets, & fast them once a week also.
I used to do x2 50% water a week & once a week use the the gravel cleaner.
Now I do x1 50% water change a week, gravel clean x1 week to. They have live plants only.

I've tested water every thing was fine how ever I did just do a 60% water change & of course treated water before hand.

Can anyone tell me what the problem could be? & suggest what I could do?

Thanks in advance

[Diana]

This sort of action is called flashing. Usually it means the fish has some sort of irritation going on. A few causes:

Goldfish prefer hard, alkaline water. Low pH can irritate them.

If the new water is not similar to the tank water (GH, KH, TDS) the change in water chemistry can irritate them or kill them.

There may be things in the water conditioners that you are adding that are irritating them. I have found Golds to be very intolerant of chloramine, so if your water has this be sure to use the full dose of dechlor to deal with this. Some dechlor will split the chlorine-ammonia bond, but not lock up the ammonia. (Read the label carefully- if it does not say it locks up ammonia, assume it does not) The ammonia might irritate the fish. (as well as being toxic). It would only be in the tank long enough for the nitrifying bacteria to remove it, perhaps overnight.

Parasites, usually on the skin or in the gills (not usually intestinal parasites.) Watch for critters that are large enough to see hanging onto the outside of the fish, or small white spots (several good threads and stickies about Ich) or gills that are redder than normal, or very pale.

Some fish show off this way, but I usually associate this with Cichlids claiming territory.

Goldfish are very tolerant of salt. You might try adding some salt to the water and see if this helps. You could start with up to a tablespoon per 10 gallons (15 ml per 40 liters) and add that much each day for a few days. Dissolve the salt in some water and add it to the tank slowly, over the course of the day. Next day, repeat.

8 Goldfish in a 200 liter is fine while they are small enough. As the water changes get to be too much, and the nitrate starts climbing, be ready to separate them, or more all of them into a larger tank. Fancies are MUCH fatter than most other fish, so just looking at their length is not a good guide as to how much waste they are adding to the tank. Most of these have a hard time swimming, so they may not look like they need the space. If you wanted to add a large sump, especially a planted sump, this would increase the time they could stay in this tank by increasing the volume of water that is diluting the waste.

[madhatter28]

hi Diana thanks. Since doing a water change of 60% I haven't noticed it happen again as yet!
I still can see anything that could suggest its ick, flukes & so on.
The water conditioner I've always used is called primes it removes chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, detoxifies, nitrite & nitrate & also prevents slime coat. You add 5ml per 200L.

In regards to the aquarium salts can I add the tablespoon per 10 gallons even if I'm not sure what's going on yet?[/list]

[madhatter28]

hi again following my trouble with rubbing/flashing I added the aquarium salt as was suggested, before adding I did huge water change & as I has have a heater on my external filter I put in on to see if that also helps, I will repeat salt steps again tomorrow.
Have to say they don't seem to be doing this now from what I can see anyhow. Also there is still no other signs that suggest their sick. Hopefully that will be the end of it!

Thanks Diana for advice[/img]

[Diana]

Prime is a good dechlorinator. Yes, it locks up ammonia.

I have read a thread that seemed to indicate some mysterious problem that sounded like a toxicity problem, and after all other possibilities had been eliminated it came down to the Prime. Perhaps a bad batch.

If you have been using the bottle for a while, then there is probably not a problem, and the recent water change that helped also suggests that Prime is not the problem.

Sodium chloride by any other name is fine: Aquarium $alt, Kosher, pickling, and other salt is just fine. If they are not itching now, though, I would not add salt. Save the salt for when it is really needed.

[madhatter28]

Hi the prime bottle is a newly opened one, but as I have a 2nd tropical tank I also used the prime in there & there is no problem with them fish, they are large tetras & a cuckoo catfish.

It seemed to calm down after water change & adding the salt, but just now I've seen a couple of them not rubbing or flashing but like their shaking fins.
I added some more salt 1 tablesponn per 10 gallons.

I just don't understand it, the water test was fine, I gravel clean 1-2 weekly I do 50% water 1-2 weekly, I feed good mix of live & dried foods, I even today replaced their UV lights incase that could be it the others ones where 7 months old.

I really spent alot of time looking after them which I don't mind this is werid. The only other thing is my oranda is 4 inch long has no white spot on tail or gills but it chases one of my two black moor which is 3 inch, it nudges from underneath with some force can this cause stress in the tank?
Doesn't look like it is but.......... who knows there's still no other signs at all of dieases, I tell you I'm gutted.

Ps while posting this one fish rubbed it body on gravel......... on my god I don't get it

[Diana]

Do you know if the Oranda might be a male? Pushing like that suggests he is trying to mate.

Without seeing what might be the problem, no obvious parasites, all water tests optimum, the only thing I could suggest is to keep up the water changes. If there is some irritant in there, perhaps you can keep diluting it and finally get rid of it.

Good idea on the UV sterilizer.
Keep up the salt, too.

[madhatter28]

Hi yeh I will keep water changing up.
It seem to be the same 3 or 4 so I think I will put them in another tank, its abit small but could do for bit till sorted.
Also its not fair to put the others through it, what a nightmare!

Not sure iif oranda is male I've always said it looked like a boy but guess further down line I might find out.

Thanks for all the advice really I'm very grateful.

[madhatter28]

to my horror I found why my fancy goldfish were flashing etc
I thought they were sick & so on. However tonight my oranda got some thing stuck in mouth so I went to deal with!
As I put my hand in to water I got a weird sensation that made me want to remove my hand, so I got my sister to try she to went oh my god & took hand out.
The reason my fish were being strange was they were getting it too.

We took things apart to see I had by mistake put the heater on the external filter on, handy during the winter months.
So we unpluged it, it stopped, we pluged in again & it started again!

So the water must have been go through in let pipe in to cainster through heater were something must have been touching it so when it came out the out let pipe the fish were were feeling that sensation for past few days, how they are alive I don't know!

It has been removed & binned fear not!

Happy times again, well for now at least lol

[Diana]

Fantastic that you found the solution, and it was so easy to deal with!

[FishyLady]

Fantastic that you found the solution, and it was so easy to deal with!

Ditto, so nice to read a happy ending!!

Val