So I'm guessing it's another case to be safe...instead of sorry in the future
The spots that didn't drop off lasted about 5 weeks so maybe I'll keep up the consistency for 6 weeks just to be safe...then slowly drip the lower dosage of salt on the next weeks WC at 1tsp per gallon etc
I'm getting worried because the big guy has more spots now then he's ever had
I put in the new ornament with all the holes and the loaches absolutely love it...took them about 5 minutes before they started exploring with their curious nature...and all of them were outside schooling and playing the whole night
bumped up the salt dosage to 2tsp per gallon and dripped it over a period of 12 hours
they seem to tolerate it quite well
eating still normal is not better than previous weeks as well as their behaviour
Usually the situation will worsen before it starts to get better...I'm hoping that's what I'm seeing
but at this point I'm not in a position to take chances...the loaches have been stressed for too long
Long battle with Ich...I need help
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
Update time
Bumped the dosage up to 2tsp per gallon from 1tsp per gallon and dripped over 15+ hours
next morning all 4 albino cory's were dead
The loaches were hiding all day and would not even come out to eat...which is very unusual
so I did a 40% WC with 1tsp per gallon and dripped it
and almost instantly all the clown loaches came out of hiding and began schooling like normal...this morning they were eating...but they were scared...kind of popped out grabbed a pellet and darted back inside their cave
I'm doing another 40% WC tonight with 1tsp per gallon to get drop the salinity a bit from where it is now...hopefully the loaches will be back to normal next morning
big guy still has 6 spots on left side and 4 spots on the other side (which has improved since 2 days ago)
so it's working...slowly but surely
other fish still remain unnaffected by the ich
on a side note...when I added the 2tsp per gallon I noticed the next morning that I could see the spots on the big guy much more clearly than the previous day with 1tsp per gallon
I think the 2tsp per gallon dosage completely stripped the slime coat on the big loach...his colouration was much more golden coloured than usual and I could literrally see the spots on the fish very clearly
I'm also having a strange problem with my water params...not sure if it's the strips I'm using or not
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
KH and pH were fine
nitrates were 40 before I did the 2tsp per gallon drip
and after the 2tsp per gallon drip (I just tested yesterday) the nitrates shot up over 100
this is weird cuz I've doubled my WC schedule to 2 times weekly because I noticed the 40 nitrates on about wednesday
I don't know why this would be happening? Does API aquarium salt contain nitrates or something?
I see on the box it says to use it when setting up a new aquarium so this is the only conclusion I can come to
I'm assuming the 2tsp per gallon drip did this...but I'm no expert
Only other thing that has changed was the hornwort plant I had in the loach tank got completely killed by the 2tsp per gallon salt drip
and began deteriorating in the tank...at the moment all the plant pieces have been removed so they don't decompose and contribute to the water quality
Also after the 2tsp per gallon drip my kH and pH dropped to almost 0
(Acidic water and at the bottom of the scale)
Bumped the dosage up to 2tsp per gallon from 1tsp per gallon and dripped over 15+ hours
next morning all 4 albino cory's were dead
The loaches were hiding all day and would not even come out to eat...which is very unusual
so I did a 40% WC with 1tsp per gallon and dripped it
and almost instantly all the clown loaches came out of hiding and began schooling like normal...this morning they were eating...but they were scared...kind of popped out grabbed a pellet and darted back inside their cave
I'm doing another 40% WC tonight with 1tsp per gallon to get drop the salinity a bit from where it is now...hopefully the loaches will be back to normal next morning
big guy still has 6 spots on left side and 4 spots on the other side (which has improved since 2 days ago)
so it's working...slowly but surely
other fish still remain unnaffected by the ich
on a side note...when I added the 2tsp per gallon I noticed the next morning that I could see the spots on the big guy much more clearly than the previous day with 1tsp per gallon
I think the 2tsp per gallon dosage completely stripped the slime coat on the big loach...his colouration was much more golden coloured than usual and I could literrally see the spots on the fish very clearly
I'm also having a strange problem with my water params...not sure if it's the strips I'm using or not
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
KH and pH were fine
nitrates were 40 before I did the 2tsp per gallon drip
and after the 2tsp per gallon drip (I just tested yesterday) the nitrates shot up over 100
this is weird cuz I've doubled my WC schedule to 2 times weekly because I noticed the 40 nitrates on about wednesday
I don't know why this would be happening? Does API aquarium salt contain nitrates or something?
I see on the box it says to use it when setting up a new aquarium so this is the only conclusion I can come to
I'm assuming the 2tsp per gallon drip did this...but I'm no expert
Only other thing that has changed was the hornwort plant I had in the loach tank got completely killed by the 2tsp per gallon salt drip
and began deteriorating in the tank...at the moment all the plant pieces have been removed so they don't decompose and contribute to the water quality
Also after the 2tsp per gallon drip my kH and pH dropped to almost 0
(Acidic water and at the bottom of the scale)
Sorry, but not using Aquarium Salt is the 1st thing I mentioned in my salt treatment tutorial.
http://www.geocities.com/chefkeithallen ... lator.html
I guess I should have made that clearer somehow.
I only recommend using pure NaCl food grade salt in treatments for ich. Aquarium salt is usually made from evaporated sea water. It has a completely different composition and is out of my scope of how the water and fish will react to the treatment.
I'll have more comments later tonight.
http://www.geocities.com/chefkeithallen ... lator.html
I guess I should have made that clearer somehow.
I only recommend using pure NaCl food grade salt in treatments for ich. Aquarium salt is usually made from evaporated sea water. It has a completely different composition and is out of my scope of how the water and fish will react to the treatment.
I'll have more comments later tonight.
The results of the tests are not consistent with the treatment you did. (adding a higher dose of salt)
If you added pure sodium chloride, this has no direct affect on pH, KH, NO3 or any other test like these. It will raise the TDS (total dissolved solids) API used to make a Pond Salt Test that would read levels this low. I do not know if it is still available as a single test. You might look for something called Pond Master Test Kit. It will have other useful tests, too.
Indirect effects of salt:
Kills plants... then the plants are not there to remove ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, so these levels go up.
Kills fish and plants that rot, adding more ammonia to the tank. Bacteria turn this into nitrite then nitrate. Good to keep removing these, and clean the filter media, too.
As things decompose this action can lower the pH. Very high nitrates can lower the pH. A drop in KH will permit the pH to vary over a wider range, especially toward the lower (acidic) end. This usually does not happen all at once, though, and prompt removal of dead fish, dead plants, fish waste, fallen food etc. prevents this.
Could your large water changes have removed the KH? Is your new water (tap?) extremely soft (very low KH)? Is there something else in the tank that is removing KH? Some substrates do this.
If you added pure sodium chloride, this has no direct affect on pH, KH, NO3 or any other test like these. It will raise the TDS (total dissolved solids) API used to make a Pond Salt Test that would read levels this low. I do not know if it is still available as a single test. You might look for something called Pond Master Test Kit. It will have other useful tests, too.
Indirect effects of salt:
Kills plants... then the plants are not there to remove ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, so these levels go up.
Kills fish and plants that rot, adding more ammonia to the tank. Bacteria turn this into nitrite then nitrate. Good to keep removing these, and clean the filter media, too.
As things decompose this action can lower the pH. Very high nitrates can lower the pH. A drop in KH will permit the pH to vary over a wider range, especially toward the lower (acidic) end. This usually does not happen all at once, though, and prompt removal of dead fish, dead plants, fish waste, fallen food etc. prevents this.
Could your large water changes have removed the KH? Is your new water (tap?) extremely soft (very low KH)? Is there something else in the tank that is removing KH? Some substrates do this.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Sorry to hear about the cory's. It does make me suspect that they had ich hidden in the gills though. Not sure why else they'd die, unless something in the salt had something to do with it.
You really should switch to pure NaCl. Take the element of doubt out of the equation. Something in the API salt could be changing the water parameters or maybe it's just interfering with the test results.
Test strips are known to be highly inaccurate also, so I'm not sure what to think the problem is. Either way I'd switch to a different salt, like Kosher or canning salt.
Salt does effect the slime coat production of clown loaches. After about 10-14 days the slime coat is usually cleaned off, and the loaches will look brighter and more colorful. That is normal during this treatment.
Ich spots will grow larger regardless of the salt dosage, but they will look more defined for the reasons above.
Hopefully I'll remember to remind the next person that it is a good idea to move any plants to a different tank over the duration of this treatment. Plants are usually something I forget about.
You really should switch to pure NaCl. Take the element of doubt out of the equation. Something in the API salt could be changing the water parameters or maybe it's just interfering with the test results.
Test strips are known to be highly inaccurate also, so I'm not sure what to think the problem is. Either way I'd switch to a different salt, like Kosher or canning salt.
Salt does effect the slime coat production of clown loaches. After about 10-14 days the slime coat is usually cleaned off, and the loaches will look brighter and more colorful. That is normal during this treatment.
Ich spots will grow larger regardless of the salt dosage, but they will look more defined for the reasons above.
Hopefully I'll remember to remind the next person that it is a good idea to move any plants to a different tank over the duration of this treatment. Plants are usually something I forget about.
Sorry I honestly didn't even see that...that's what happens when you're reading at 1am I guess
Stupid me...I read on another site that cory's were the first to die with excessive amounts of salt (this was the next morning and was already too late) but I guess it's good knowledge for future referrence
2tsp per gallon and cory's do not mix
I have nothing special in the tank to remove KH that I know of
The plants that had died and began decomposing I removed with a net 2 days ago
the water out of the tap is about 125-150 ppm somewhere in that range
do you think the plant decomposing caused a large amount of nitrites > nitrates to pop up?
I will switch to normal table salt or kosher salt if they have it in my grocery store...for the same reason you mentioned
just to exclude 1 more problem
The plants I'm not worried about because I have a proper backup crop growing in my guppy tank constantly...as well as snails for the loaches lol
I guess all I can do for now is do another WC tonight and drop the dose to 1tsp per gallon over the next few days...the loaches seemed a lot happier at that concentration
they were barely eating again today so I'm going to continue to drop the concentration of the salt until they are eating / schooling normally again
I figure added stress will not help them shake the "super ich" so it's better to keep them in good health and happy
Stupid me...I read on another site that cory's were the first to die with excessive amounts of salt (this was the next morning and was already too late) but I guess it's good knowledge for future referrence
2tsp per gallon and cory's do not mix
I have nothing special in the tank to remove KH that I know of
The plants that had died and began decomposing I removed with a net 2 days ago
the water out of the tap is about 125-150 ppm somewhere in that range
do you think the plant decomposing caused a large amount of nitrites > nitrates to pop up?
I will switch to normal table salt or kosher salt if they have it in my grocery store...for the same reason you mentioned
just to exclude 1 more problem
The plants I'm not worried about because I have a proper backup crop growing in my guppy tank constantly...as well as snails for the loaches lol
I guess all I can do for now is do another WC tonight and drop the dose to 1tsp per gallon over the next few days...the loaches seemed a lot happier at that concentration
they were barely eating again today so I'm going to continue to drop the concentration of the salt until they are eating / schooling normally again
I figure added stress will not help them shake the "super ich" so it's better to keep them in good health and happy
and the cory's problem (not sure exactly what it was..but from what I was able to physically see on them) was that they had a great deal of inflamation on the left and right sides of their bodies right abouts where their stomach is
they were irratated looking red bumps that kind of had a metallic sheen on both sides
but the last one I saw barely kicking in the morning looked like symptoms of swim bladder disease...he was swimming irradically for a few minutes then he would lie on the bottom then swim irradically again until about 5 minutes later he stopped
The only thing that I can think of was the salt was just too much...the cory's were extremely healthy and even 2 of them were playing with the clowns from time to time
the swim bladder issue I can only guess was what caused their demise...and of course I attribute this to too much salt
it's the only thing that makes sense and stays consistent ... the loaches behaviour changed after the 2tsp per gallon to the point they wouldn't even eat so that's all I can come up with tbh
thank you both for your input and help,
it is appreciated more than you can imagine
Sincerely,
Taylor
they were irratated looking red bumps that kind of had a metallic sheen on both sides
but the last one I saw barely kicking in the morning looked like symptoms of swim bladder disease...he was swimming irradically for a few minutes then he would lie on the bottom then swim irradically again until about 5 minutes later he stopped
The only thing that I can think of was the salt was just too much...the cory's were extremely healthy and even 2 of them were playing with the clowns from time to time
the swim bladder issue I can only guess was what caused their demise...and of course I attribute this to too much salt
it's the only thing that makes sense and stays consistent ... the loaches behaviour changed after the 2tsp per gallon to the point they wouldn't even eat so that's all I can come up with tbh
thank you both for your input and help,
it is appreciated more than you can imagine
Sincerely,
Taylor
Fish live in balance with their water. When the water is very low in minerals and salts (low total dissolved solids) the fishes' system can hold onto whatever minerals it needs out of the water and get rid of excess water. Fresh water fish pee a lot of very dilute waste.
As the mineral and salt content of the water increases their system does not have to work so hard to get rid of excess water, and this can be a relief for them in times of stress, but some fish cannot handle water with too much of certain minerals in it.
Marine fish have a somewhat different system. They live in water that has more minerals and salt than they need, so their system is geared to conserving water and getting rid of the excess minerals and salt.
There are certainly fish that can handle both sorts of water, many migratory fish can live in both sorts of water, and fish that are often found in brackish water may swim into fresh rivers or farther out to sea, but most fish cannot handle water that is too extreme, too far from the chemical balance they evolved in.
Also, the change in TDS needs to happen slowly, over several days, not even as fast as dripping in the new amount of salt (this large an amount) over several hours or a day.
This may be what happened to the Cories. Too great a change, too fast.
About test kits: Yes, the strips are not as accurate.
Here is a way to get finer numbers on some tests:
(I am most familiar with API tests, so these ideas are geared toward their tests)
1) Partially fill a test tube with tank water, and top it off with distilled or RO water.
2) Do the test.
3) Multiply the results by however much the sample was diluted.
example:
Test tube holds 5 ml.
Fill with 2.5 ml aquarium water + 2.5 ml RO. Then double the results. I use an eye dropper that is marked down to 10ths of a ml. to fill the tube.
To get a better handle on the nitrate that seems to be over 100 ppm I would use 1 ml aquarium water and 4 ml RO. Then multiply the results by 5. The colors in the lower range of the test are more easily told apart than the upper range.
You could do this with the dip sticks, too. Mix a sample as above, then dip the stick into the diluted sample and multiply the results.
This does not work with pH, it is not a linear value. Use a sample of pure aquarium water for that.
While you are working with salt in the tank I would get a TDS meter (I have seen them on E-Bay for under $20.00) or some other way to measure the levels of salt that you are working with.
Then, test tank and new water, and figure out that a water change will not make too great a change in TDS, but to make such changes more slowly, over several days to a week. This is even more important when you are reducing the TDS. Fish that are acclimated to a high TDS cannot tolerate a sudden reduction in TDS.
Get the TDS meter. Do not make a greater change than 10% if you are reducing the TDS, or 15% if you are raising it. If you do this much then give the fish a few days before changing it this much again. Lets say with all the salt that is in there, and other minerals the TDS is 800 ppm. I would not change it more than 80 ppm in one water change, and I would spread out such water changes several days apart. So one water change might take it down to 720, the next to about 650, the next to 585 and so on. 10% reduction perhaps twice a week, max.
For more info look up osmosis, and osmoregulatory system with the word fish in the search as well.
As the mineral and salt content of the water increases their system does not have to work so hard to get rid of excess water, and this can be a relief for them in times of stress, but some fish cannot handle water with too much of certain minerals in it.
Marine fish have a somewhat different system. They live in water that has more minerals and salt than they need, so their system is geared to conserving water and getting rid of the excess minerals and salt.
There are certainly fish that can handle both sorts of water, many migratory fish can live in both sorts of water, and fish that are often found in brackish water may swim into fresh rivers or farther out to sea, but most fish cannot handle water that is too extreme, too far from the chemical balance they evolved in.
Also, the change in TDS needs to happen slowly, over several days, not even as fast as dripping in the new amount of salt (this large an amount) over several hours or a day.
This may be what happened to the Cories. Too great a change, too fast.
About test kits: Yes, the strips are not as accurate.
Here is a way to get finer numbers on some tests:
(I am most familiar with API tests, so these ideas are geared toward their tests)
1) Partially fill a test tube with tank water, and top it off with distilled or RO water.
2) Do the test.
3) Multiply the results by however much the sample was diluted.
example:
Test tube holds 5 ml.
Fill with 2.5 ml aquarium water + 2.5 ml RO. Then double the results. I use an eye dropper that is marked down to 10ths of a ml. to fill the tube.
To get a better handle on the nitrate that seems to be over 100 ppm I would use 1 ml aquarium water and 4 ml RO. Then multiply the results by 5. The colors in the lower range of the test are more easily told apart than the upper range.
You could do this with the dip sticks, too. Mix a sample as above, then dip the stick into the diluted sample and multiply the results.
This does not work with pH, it is not a linear value. Use a sample of pure aquarium water for that.
While you are working with salt in the tank I would get a TDS meter (I have seen them on E-Bay for under $20.00) or some other way to measure the levels of salt that you are working with.
Then, test tank and new water, and figure out that a water change will not make too great a change in TDS, but to make such changes more slowly, over several days to a week. This is even more important when you are reducing the TDS. Fish that are acclimated to a high TDS cannot tolerate a sudden reduction in TDS.
Get the TDS meter. Do not make a greater change than 10% if you are reducing the TDS, or 15% if you are raising it. If you do this much then give the fish a few days before changing it this much again. Lets say with all the salt that is in there, and other minerals the TDS is 800 ppm. I would not change it more than 80 ppm in one water change, and I would spread out such water changes several days apart. So one water change might take it down to 720, the next to about 650, the next to 585 and so on. 10% reduction perhaps twice a week, max.
For more info look up osmosis, and osmoregulatory system with the word fish in the search as well.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
well aren't I glad I got home at 2am and didn't have time to do that WC last night
I'll do it tonight and drip it in again...it's been about 2 days since the last so that should be long enough
You might be right about the corys ...but I have read on 2 different sites that used salt to treat their ich infestations and in both cases the corys were the first to go
I think we both have a piece of the correct answer
I think i'll just get the API master test kit tonight and stop playing with these stupid strips...i'm tired of questioning my water condition every time I use a strip
I'm gonna grab some real salt and possibly a TDS meter depending how much money the wife will let me spend
in regards to the fish...big loach still has the same amount of spots as yesterday...was a little more active during feeding
but not normal by any means
I think I have to find a safe balance for the salt consistency...somewhere between where I am now and where I was about a week ago when i started at 1tsp per gallon
I'll do it tonight and drip it in again...it's been about 2 days since the last so that should be long enough
You might be right about the corys ...but I have read on 2 different sites that used salt to treat their ich infestations and in both cases the corys were the first to go
I think we both have a piece of the correct answer
I think i'll just get the API master test kit tonight and stop playing with these stupid strips...i'm tired of questioning my water condition every time I use a strip
I'm gonna grab some real salt and possibly a TDS meter depending how much money the wife will let me spend
in regards to the fish...big loach still has the same amount of spots as yesterday...was a little more active during feeding
but not normal by any means
I think I have to find a safe balance for the salt consistency...somewhere between where I am now and where I was about a week ago when i started at 1tsp per gallon
Ich, for Tay690
I don't usually do his format but I'm in the same mess as you with the Botias and the Ich. Bottom Line: Tropical Fish for 56 years. [size=18][/size]Have bought some fish in the last month x 3. My usual acclimation is mini air tubing into a 5 gal. bucket sphiponing water from the tank to approx. 3 gallons with a Malichite Green treatment during the acclimation. I haven't had any disease problem for 15+ years. I didn't do this on the new fish and am paying the price, old age and it's messing with my memory!!! I have small Angels, Cory cats, Tetras,etc. along with Striata, Poke-a-dot, and 5 5" Clown Loachs. Everything in the tank is fairing well except the loaches. Started with old Aquatronic Malachite/Quinine product. Then tried Kordon Ich Attack for a .few days. I just started Quik Cure at 1/2 dose per a number of stores/web sites and a Bioliogist at THat Fish Place. All this with heat, 82 F, salt at one teaspoon per 5 gallons. In the past with Ich I would treat with Malachite Green and there was no problems but I'm not very hopefull at this point for the Botias. The best of luck to you brother as I think we are going to need it.
Loaches were not involved
Loaches were not involved
wow I just wrote an entire essay on my ordeal at the LFS
got bumped to the login page and bye bye essay
I'm at work so I'll make it short and sweet
head fishkeeper at the LFS where I got the ich suggested a UV sterilizer for an amazing price of $180 LOL no dice
then he recommended a copper based ich med...so sad
and ended it all with "if the fish is causing you that much trouble, why not just get rid of it?" which for me is not even an option
not to mention I don't feel like giving the store that gave my biggest loach ich...my $60 clown loach for free
as far as I'm concerned they should replace my cories and my biggest loach...but that's a whole other story in itself
as for the tank
clowns are still very skittish even when feeding...they're also not eating as much as usual (which is odd...cuz they love the HBH pellets more than bloodworms even...they actually go for the pellets before they go for the bloodworms lol go figure)
big loach from what I saw this morning seemed to be worse than the previous day...it was hard to get a good look at him because he's really stressed...even with me feeding (and the loaches do know who I am...they know where the food comes from lol) I can barely get 5 seconds to look at him in the light
I'll drop the salt concertration tonight and on friday again until I start seeing a change in their feeding / behaviour throughout the day
I'll continue to do so until they are acting normally...i figure the added stress of the extreme salt concertration will do nothing but contribute to their stress level and inadvertently allow the ich "easier access"
good idea, bad idea?
any other suggestions / opinions are greatly appreciated
sincerely,
Taylor
got bumped to the login page and bye bye essay
I'm at work so I'll make it short and sweet
head fishkeeper at the LFS where I got the ich suggested a UV sterilizer for an amazing price of $180 LOL no dice
then he recommended a copper based ich med...so sad
and ended it all with "if the fish is causing you that much trouble, why not just get rid of it?" which for me is not even an option
not to mention I don't feel like giving the store that gave my biggest loach ich...my $60 clown loach for free
as far as I'm concerned they should replace my cories and my biggest loach...but that's a whole other story in itself
as for the tank
clowns are still very skittish even when feeding...they're also not eating as much as usual (which is odd...cuz they love the HBH pellets more than bloodworms even...they actually go for the pellets before they go for the bloodworms lol go figure)
big loach from what I saw this morning seemed to be worse than the previous day...it was hard to get a good look at him because he's really stressed...even with me feeding (and the loaches do know who I am...they know where the food comes from lol) I can barely get 5 seconds to look at him in the light
I'll drop the salt concertration tonight and on friday again until I start seeing a change in their feeding / behaviour throughout the day
I'll continue to do so until they are acting normally...i figure the added stress of the extreme salt concertration will do nothing but contribute to their stress level and inadvertently allow the ich "easier access"
good idea, bad idea?
any other suggestions / opinions are greatly appreciated
sincerely,
Taylor
Ditto to everything in Diana's post.
I usually avoid giving instructions on this salt treatment because the moderators here are against using salt with loaches. It can be done safely though, but it requires accurate measuring, attention to detail, lots of patience, and some knowledge of the water chemistry. The most dangerous thing with this salt treatment is osmotic shock. This is something that needs to be taken very seriously. A TDS meter is probably the easiest and best way to avoid measuring mistakes so that osmotic shock can be prevented.
Also to help avoid Osmotic Shock, I usually recommend water changes no greater than 20%, but only if the fish are 100% healthy. Diana is recommending 10% water changes during this treatment, which is what I'd go with also. If you had done a 40% water changes with 1 tpg of food grade salt in the new water and 2 tpg of food grade salt in the tank water, then the TDS drop from the salt removal would of been about 600 ppm or 20%. That would be a big osmotic drop, especially for fish that may have ich in their gills. With the aquarium salt you were using, that difference is probably even larger.
This is also in my tutoral-
"When removing salt, be sure that the fish are 100% healthy. Sick fish do not acclimate as well to osmotic drops. It usually takes a fish 2-3 weeks to fully recover from disease outbreaks"
http://www.geocities.com/chefkeithallen ... lator.html
You have to be extra careful now because your fish are really in a tough situation. Osmotic shock plus ich is an extremely lethal combination. Raising or Lowering the salt dosage might even make the osmotic problem worse. Another problem is the salt concentration might not be high enough to kill tougher strains of ich. You were using the wrong kind of salt too. Hopefully the osmotic shock was only mild. You'll have to give the fish more time to acclimate. I wouldn't do any water changes until they are acting normally again.
You might want to add some fresh activated carbon to the filters every few days. I'd even try using something like Purigen so that excess nitrates and ammonia are removed.
I usually avoid giving instructions on this salt treatment because the moderators here are against using salt with loaches. It can be done safely though, but it requires accurate measuring, attention to detail, lots of patience, and some knowledge of the water chemistry. The most dangerous thing with this salt treatment is osmotic shock. This is something that needs to be taken very seriously. A TDS meter is probably the easiest and best way to avoid measuring mistakes so that osmotic shock can be prevented.
Also to help avoid Osmotic Shock, I usually recommend water changes no greater than 20%, but only if the fish are 100% healthy. Diana is recommending 10% water changes during this treatment, which is what I'd go with also. If you had done a 40% water changes with 1 tpg of food grade salt in the new water and 2 tpg of food grade salt in the tank water, then the TDS drop from the salt removal would of been about 600 ppm or 20%. That would be a big osmotic drop, especially for fish that may have ich in their gills. With the aquarium salt you were using, that difference is probably even larger.
This is also in my tutoral-
"When removing salt, be sure that the fish are 100% healthy. Sick fish do not acclimate as well to osmotic drops. It usually takes a fish 2-3 weeks to fully recover from disease outbreaks"
http://www.geocities.com/chefkeithallen ... lator.html
You have to be extra careful now because your fish are really in a tough situation. Osmotic shock plus ich is an extremely lethal combination. Raising or Lowering the salt dosage might even make the osmotic problem worse. Another problem is the salt concentration might not be high enough to kill tougher strains of ich. You were using the wrong kind of salt too. Hopefully the osmotic shock was only mild. You'll have to give the fish more time to acclimate. I wouldn't do any water changes until they are acting normally again.
You might want to add some fresh activated carbon to the filters every few days. I'd even try using something like Purigen so that excess nitrates and ammonia are removed.
I did a 15% WC yesterday at 1.5tsp per gallon (no internet at home right now...long story...funny story too lol)
the loaches actually seemed better almost immediately after the WC
this morning they are still a little skittish but all of them kind of gathered in the bottom of the cave and were looking at me lol they're such silly fish
I couldn't see the big guy in the light at all so I'm not sure if his spots have dropped off or not
he's acting a lot better tbh so I'll continue doing what I'm doing
after the WC the big guy came out to see me and started watching me on top of his favourite rock
feeding is much improved from yesterday...they are still hiding in the cave
during feeding time...then they kind of pop out...grab a piece of food, bring it to the cave and eat it
they seem to be more sensitive to the light (when i'm trying to see if the big guy has spots in the morning i put the light on for about 15 mins while they're feeding, just to see if he's shook of those last few troublesome spots)
I think the fact that my hornwort plant is gone (which was giving them shade from the lighting) is why they are more sensitive to the light now
before this wasn't an issue at all...until the plant died
Nitrates have come down to about 40 now from over 100+
nitrites showed up at 1.0 yesterday before the WC
pH is still down...would it be worth it for me to add some baking soda?
but everything else is stabilizing...
I must have siphoned the gravel too well or something with that big WC I did...it's almost like another cycle has started
It's definitely going in the right direction so I guess the old saying will suffice "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
the pH is the only thing that really worries me at this point
nitrates and nitrites i can take of no problem
one last question i also have
how long after the last spots drop off do you think I should continue to treat the tank for?
with this super strain of ich lasting 5 weeks on my big loach...would it be wise to continue the treatment for 6 weeks after the last visible spot dissapears?
the loaches actually seemed better almost immediately after the WC
this morning they are still a little skittish but all of them kind of gathered in the bottom of the cave and were looking at me lol they're such silly fish
I couldn't see the big guy in the light at all so I'm not sure if his spots have dropped off or not
he's acting a lot better tbh so I'll continue doing what I'm doing
after the WC the big guy came out to see me and started watching me on top of his favourite rock
feeding is much improved from yesterday...they are still hiding in the cave
during feeding time...then they kind of pop out...grab a piece of food, bring it to the cave and eat it
they seem to be more sensitive to the light (when i'm trying to see if the big guy has spots in the morning i put the light on for about 15 mins while they're feeding, just to see if he's shook of those last few troublesome spots)
I think the fact that my hornwort plant is gone (which was giving them shade from the lighting) is why they are more sensitive to the light now
before this wasn't an issue at all...until the plant died
Nitrates have come down to about 40 now from over 100+
nitrites showed up at 1.0 yesterday before the WC
pH is still down...would it be worth it for me to add some baking soda?
but everything else is stabilizing...
I must have siphoned the gravel too well or something with that big WC I did...it's almost like another cycle has started
It's definitely going in the right direction so I guess the old saying will suffice "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
the pH is the only thing that really worries me at this point
nitrates and nitrites i can take of no problem
one last question i also have
how long after the last spots drop off do you think I should continue to treat the tank for?
with this super strain of ich lasting 5 weeks on my big loach...would it be wise to continue the treatment for 6 weeks after the last visible spot dissapears?
I think I know why the kH and pH have dropped. It's combination of the plants, water temperature, and surface agitation. If you raised the temperature and have extra surface agitation then the CO2 levels would have dropped real low and the plants and nitrifying bacteria would be using the next source of carbon, which is the Kh in the water. When the Kh drops, the pH drops just as well. If the Kh was low to begin with, then it might drop down to zero.. That's when the plants start dying, the nitrates start climbing, and ammonia/ammonium starts building up. A water change will replenish the Kh, drop the nitrates, but then the bacteria jump into overdrive and consume all the excess ammonia, then cause the nitrite and nitrate to spike.
You need to get the nitrite and nitrate levels down. Purigen would be good for that. Good thing the salt is detoxing the nitrite right now. You might want to lower the water temperature and surface agitation a little so the CO2 levels can climb a little higher or enough so that the Kh will no longer get consumed.
What is the Kh and Gh of the tap water?
You need to get the nitrite and nitrate levels down. Purigen would be good for that. Good thing the salt is detoxing the nitrite right now. You might want to lower the water temperature and surface agitation a little so the CO2 levels can climb a little higher or enough so that the Kh will no longer get consumed.
What is the Kh and Gh of the tap water?
freakin' genius...
i applaud a good logical mind and you're one of the best my friend
kudos
I'm at work right now and have tomorrow off so I'll try to get over to my buddies house to post the tap params
what do you suggest dropping the temperature to? it's at 86 atm and has been so for about 2 months
i'll set the bubbles lower also
as far as I can remember the levels out of the tap were pretty standard...right in the range the strips say is safe / neutral etc
but I'll post accurate results either tonight or tomorrow when I get some internet access
i still can't believe you put all that together
is it true that if the (not sure which it is) that if kH or pH drop to a critical level that the ammonia becomes ammonium? cuz I read somewhere that was true...but then there was lots of arguing and bantering back and forth
I'm thinking that the levels in the tank are so low that when I add the water for the WC it's boosting that parameter back to normal level and converting the ammonium back to ammonia...which would explain why it keeps showing up in small amounts...then to nitrite then to nitrate
what you suggested is the only thing that makes sense at this point
i applaud a good logical mind and you're one of the best my friend
kudos
I'm at work right now and have tomorrow off so I'll try to get over to my buddies house to post the tap params
what do you suggest dropping the temperature to? it's at 86 atm and has been so for about 2 months
i'll set the bubbles lower also
as far as I can remember the levels out of the tap were pretty standard...right in the range the strips say is safe / neutral etc
but I'll post accurate results either tonight or tomorrow when I get some internet access
i still can't believe you put all that together
is it true that if the (not sure which it is) that if kH or pH drop to a critical level that the ammonia becomes ammonium? cuz I read somewhere that was true...but then there was lots of arguing and bantering back and forth
I'm thinking that the levels in the tank are so low that when I add the water for the WC it's boosting that parameter back to normal level and converting the ammonium back to ammonia...which would explain why it keeps showing up in small amounts...then to nitrite then to nitrate
what you suggested is the only thing that makes sense at this point
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