120 gallon? Yes!

[Katy]

Should we or shouldn't we?

[bookpage]

If you have the room and it want take food out of your children's mouth, go for it!

For real, go for it.

I got a 75 gallon first and then got my 125. Glad I have both, but wish I had gotten a 125 first and then I could have gotten another 125.....

[chefkeith]

Is this a trick question? I can't imagine having anything less than a 6 foot long tank for my loaches. I don't think too much about volume. I think about getting the largest footprint possible.

[Diana]

Yes.

[Katy]

LOL What did I expect asking the question here???

Yes, we like the footprint, but we are worried about the floor. And we are terrified of another tank disaster!

Diana: It is reassuring (though perhaps it shouldn't be) that you have big tanks in earthquake land!

And yes, the tank is a great deal, but not so much if we spend a fortune shoring up the floor.

[cloudhands]

I half expected that even here there might be some sober temperance.

The main worry is the floor. We're in a remodeled 1854 one room Vermont school house. Back then in general they tended to overbuild everything around here, and they had good timbers. But the school -- well even back then I guess people weren't crazy about paying taxes and chipping in. It's a pretty minimal foundation under this part of the house, just about 18" of dry-laid fieldstone crawlspace, but the sills are pretty good on top of that. The original floor either didn't last or was for some reason completely ripped out. Most everything that has happened to the house since it was a school, except the excellent roof, has been at best done in a way that at least looks good -- and at worst done in a half-assed or stupid way.

The floor is 2 x 6 joists, which are more like 5", and 16" apart. They span about 14 feet to rest on a central beam that's on concrete posts. It's pretty awful down there, but I should go down to look at how the joists are attached to the sill, etc. This floor system was put in within the last 20 or 30 years, I'd say.

I'm not a structural engineer, but 5" joists spanning 14 feet seems like pretty minimal construction.

With barely 18" depth and minimal access, it's hard to work down there to bolster anything. I'm sure the whole floor was put in from the top, starting from scratch. Now that it's there, it's hard to do anything under it. We just hired some insulating work, and I really felt for those poor guys working down there: cold, damp, moldy, dusty, and full of falling-apart and fallen-apart fiberglass. And no room at all.

On the plus side, there was a little upright piano in the favored spot for a big tank. It was there for many years with the previous owner. It maybe weighed close to what the tank would weigh. That's only a few feet from the wall, and the tank would be perpendicular to the joists -- the weight split between about 4 of them, and much closer to the edge than center of the joists.

There's another spot that wouldn't worry me structurally: over the central beam in the middle of the room. Straddling that beam, I'd feel OK putting any size tank there. A tank there would be possible to work into the room arrangement, but not ideal. Also, no power.

So, from this perspective, not a completely simple decision.

[Diana]

even here there might be some sober temperance

Nope, not here. We are spreading MTS as fast as we can!

Sounds like a historic structure, and I sure hear you about the structural deficiencies.

5" lumber spanning 14'. No way. I am used to thinking in terms of material available out here on the West Coast: 2 x 6 doug fir (today's material is closer to 1.5" x 5.5") can span about 6' when it is used for a walking surface. (floor, deck) The spacing on the lumber also plays a role, 16" oc is standard, out here. For outdoor decks we place the joists 24" oc. Span is determined by the size of the lumber. You might get specs on whatever lumber was actually used, different species of trees make lumber with different capacities. If the work was done recently the lumber may be stamped with something that will help you to figure this out. I do not know of any that will span 14', though, and not sag over the years.
I know you said there is rotten access under there, but adding another 'central' support between the wall and the existing support would at least bring it to a 7' span.

Tank against the wall with the foundation and sill, or sitting on top of the central beam are the best options. Anywhere near the middle of the 5" lumber will not have the support, and will gradually sag. Perpendicular to the joists, and crossing several of them is the best way to go.

You may have to decide if running electricity to the central area can be done, or whether the other location would work better. Was the whole building retrofitted with electricity at one time? How was this done? Could you (or an electrical contractor) copy their methods so that it will at least look similar? (or were those methods so bad that there is no way for it to meet today's electrical codes?)

My house has similar problems, though not as extreme. All of my tanks are on outside walls except 3. One of these is over the old foundation that was kept in use when an addition was added on, the others are over the central beam. Electrical is not pretty, but works.

[cloudhands]

Thanks!

I need to crawl under there to see if in fact there is only one central beam and a 14' span, or if there are more beams. I know at least one, because of a photo.

I'm pretty sure I could find a romex wire down there, make a box and run it to the central beam spot. Then I'd have to cut a hole in the floor and put a box in the floor. This is possible, but first of all, dauntingly unpleasant. Second of all, it might be a little funky to have an outlet in the floor.

Other options might include hiring an electrician to do this; but we've been trying to get one to show up for literally 2 and a half months to do the relatively more pleasant task of wiring our generator into the main breaker.

Also, I suppose I could put the box in the crawlspace and drill a small hole in the floor, and use an extension cord from the box I'd make in the crawlspace up through the floor and to the tank spot. This could be filled in again if ever we wanted to, with a plug of wood. So that's not so bad, except for working down in the crawlspace. I've done a lot worse though, and it wouldn't be so bad.

The main question about the central-tank location is: how does it impact the harmony and utility of the room. Harder to say on that one.

[bookpage]

cloudhands, take a look at this thread, by chefkeith. There is a picture in past post on first page you need to look at.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... ight=floor

It might give you some ideas to work with.

[cloudhands]

I just got to talk to (and hand a big check to) the energy contractor who has just spent more time under this floor than anyone ever has, I'm sure. (There is a trapdoor, which may have been used in the school-house days for unruly young vermonters, so there may have been some problem children who did time down there. Nobody knows.) Anyway, he says there are three beams, 9 feet apart, not just the one in the middle, which is obvious as a hump from this side. If we put the 120 where we are thinking, it would be 3 feet out into the 9 foot span. Not quite in the middle, but getting there.

[cloudhands]

I had seen that shoring-up beam image before.

In my crawlspace there is no way to do that really, without taking some of the foundation apart to actually get another timber in there. The only access is through a trap-door. Then there is 12 to 18" of room. Crawl on belly or scoot on back -- pick one. No room to put something long in the trapdoor and have it turn the corner.

It might be possible to jack from the joists directly to the ground though. I could probably also get some concrete blocks down there, though I'd have to use some kind of sled to scoot them over there. Three blocks and three jacks -- pretty easy really.

Now that we've insulated with spray foam against the outside wall, the ground probably won't freeze and heave down there. Before this recent insulating project, I would also have needed to make a foundation below frost. It was pretty much outdoor Vermont temperature under this floor. A remote thermometer would be interesting at this point.

[Katy]

I half expected that even here there might be some sober temperance.

I said this morning "I don't think there is a Completely-Sane_People-Who-Happen-to-Keep-Fish Forum on the internet"



I think part of my hesitancy is a bit of a down-the-rabbit-hole too fast feeling. All of this has happened so fast! (Oct 25th we had one lonely goldfish in one 20 gallon tank with one fluval filter)

[Katy]

... and I am truly heartbroken over the loss of Mr. Itchy Sides (he was flashing when we first got him) and the Sid.



Mr. Itchy Sides

[cloudhands]

I crawled over to that spot (wish I had worn a dust mask. I'm still coughing).

I found that there is a beam in the middle of the room (about 15 feet in from each side). This is stout old timber.

The two halfway-to-the-wall "beams" are something like 2x8, but a bit stouter, and *horizontal* -- flat rather than upright. Unbelievable. However the "beam" is shored up by either concrete and pressure treated post or a bit of old stump, at every joist. So that's something.
Generally, though there are sags, the floor feels pretty solid and isn't at all bouncy.

Kate knocked where the tank would go, and it's about 2 feet towards the wall from one of these "beams."

I'll post photos next.

[cloudhands]

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae69 ... 0104sm.jpg