nitrates with clowns
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nitrates with clowns
I"m new to the forum, Not really sure if i'm posting this in the right place. Not sure what else to do, I have 2 tanks one is a 36 gal the other is my 75 gal Clown Loach tank. In the 75 there are 7 Tiger barbs,5 Filament Barbs and my 3 clowns, With the biggest being around 5 inches. I had 2 emporer 400"s set up for 6 months with water changes every week of 25% and of course gravel vac also. I changed filter pads every 3 to 4 weeks and not all at once(four pads did one a week).Nitrates in either tank will not drop below 60ppm. The Api Liquid test kit is solid red. So i went out and purchased a Rena xp4 ( a little overfiltration), i also left one of the emporers on the tank. I tested Nitrate level at the tap and its 0ppm, and test kit is not expired. I also dont feel like i'm over feeding since i only feed once a day of either Hikari sinking wafers or shrimp pellets and some flake food also once a week frozen blood worms. Everyone seems fine, Other then a little mouth fungus on a Filament barb and it seemed to go away in a couple of weeks. Sorry to ramble on & on, Thank you in advance for any info on this problem.
100 gallon with 1 Clown Loach,2 satanoperca leucosticta , 1 geophagus dicrozoster,1 geo pindare, 2 Long finned albino bristlenose. 75gal with single Red Devil
You will need to do more and larger water changes.
Basic nitrogen cycle:
Fish food added to the tank has nitrogen in it, mostly in the proteins. Fish, bacteria and other organisms digest the protein, freeing the nitrogen. This nitrogen is excreted through the fishes' gills as ammonia.
Ammonia removing bacteria, living in the filter and elsewhere, eat the ammonia and return nitrite to the water.
Nitrite removing bacteria, living in the filter and elsewhere eat the nitrite and return nitrate to the water.
The bacteria that remove nitrate cause other problems in a fresh water tank, and are not encouraged to grow. Therefore nitrate builds up and it is the aquarium keeper's job to remove it. Getting a bigger filter does not alter this cycle. It helps the fish and bacteria in other ways, though, so it is helpful.
Here are some other ways to reduce nitrogen in the tank, some of which you have already addressed in your post:
Less Nitrogen IN:
Feed lower protein foods such as fresh and lightly cooked vegetables several meals per week. The protein in fish food is the major source of nitrogen entering the tank. Read the label. Some fish food is around 50% protein. This is great, and necessary for certain fish, but can be too much for other species. Loaches, Barbs and algae eaters thrive on plant based foods in addition to meats (worms, insects...)
Feed less at each meal.
Skip a day of feeding once a week.
More Nitrogen OUT:
More frequent and larger water changes.
Live plants. Underwater plants need attention to light, carbon, and fertilizers to grow at a good rate to remove nitrogen and other wastes. It is entirely possible to plant the tank with enough plants that you have to actually ADD nitrogen or else the plants starve. My Filament Barbs nibble most plants. I have lots of Java Fern in that tank, and am finding that certain other plants are mostly left alone. There is a narrow leaf Hygrophylla that is growing.
House plants can be grown with roots in the water and stem and leaves in the air. They need reasonable light, such as near a window. I have great luck with Golden Pothos. Other plants are OK for a while, then die. In spite of the Barbs eating most plants, this is one of my tanks where I actually have to dose KNO3 to keep enough nitrogen in there for the plants. I am sure it is the Golden Pothos that is responsible for the great nitrogen export.
Nitrate or ammonia removing filter inserts are not usually the answer. They may help, but are more expensive than water changes. (Unless you are doing some really expensive water prep!)
If you decide to look into this idea think about these things:
Once you get into a cycle of removing the ammonia with zeolite or other material you are starving the nitrifying bacteria. The population drops. Not all will die, but enough to cause problems if you are not diligent about keeping fresh ammonia removing media in the filter.
If you are irregular about swapping out the media then the fish will be exposed to varying levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate as the bacteria partially die off, then recover.
A typical scenario:
Aquarium keeper tests the water.
"Oh! No! Ammonia!!!"
Quick, add some zeolite. Take good care of replacing it several times. Tests again.
"Whew! No more ammonia!"
Slacks off about using zeolite. Tests.
"Oh! No! Ammonia!!!"
Quick, add some zeolite. Take good care of replacing it several times. Tests again.
"Whew! No more ammonia!" "But wait... Last time I quit using Zeolite the ammonia came back. Maybe better use it longer"
Keep repeating this sort of cycle.
From the bacteria point of view:
(Add zeolite)
"Hey! We are starving!" Population drops.
(Slack off about replacing Zeolite)
"Food! Lets reproduce!" Population starts to climb, but is not fast enough to remove all the ammonia.
(Aquarium keeper adds fresh zeolite)
"Hey! We are starving!" Population drops.
This is just not the right way to handle nitrogen accumulation in an aquarium.
Best option is to combine methods:
Less nitrogen in, and increased nitrogen removal with plants if possible, and with water changes.
Basic nitrogen cycle:
Fish food added to the tank has nitrogen in it, mostly in the proteins. Fish, bacteria and other organisms digest the protein, freeing the nitrogen. This nitrogen is excreted through the fishes' gills as ammonia.
Ammonia removing bacteria, living in the filter and elsewhere, eat the ammonia and return nitrite to the water.
Nitrite removing bacteria, living in the filter and elsewhere eat the nitrite and return nitrate to the water.
The bacteria that remove nitrate cause other problems in a fresh water tank, and are not encouraged to grow. Therefore nitrate builds up and it is the aquarium keeper's job to remove it. Getting a bigger filter does not alter this cycle. It helps the fish and bacteria in other ways, though, so it is helpful.
Here are some other ways to reduce nitrogen in the tank, some of which you have already addressed in your post:
Less Nitrogen IN:
Feed lower protein foods such as fresh and lightly cooked vegetables several meals per week. The protein in fish food is the major source of nitrogen entering the tank. Read the label. Some fish food is around 50% protein. This is great, and necessary for certain fish, but can be too much for other species. Loaches, Barbs and algae eaters thrive on plant based foods in addition to meats (worms, insects...)
Feed less at each meal.
Skip a day of feeding once a week.
More Nitrogen OUT:
More frequent and larger water changes.
Live plants. Underwater plants need attention to light, carbon, and fertilizers to grow at a good rate to remove nitrogen and other wastes. It is entirely possible to plant the tank with enough plants that you have to actually ADD nitrogen or else the plants starve. My Filament Barbs nibble most plants. I have lots of Java Fern in that tank, and am finding that certain other plants are mostly left alone. There is a narrow leaf Hygrophylla that is growing.
House plants can be grown with roots in the water and stem and leaves in the air. They need reasonable light, such as near a window. I have great luck with Golden Pothos. Other plants are OK for a while, then die. In spite of the Barbs eating most plants, this is one of my tanks where I actually have to dose KNO3 to keep enough nitrogen in there for the plants. I am sure it is the Golden Pothos that is responsible for the great nitrogen export.
Nitrate or ammonia removing filter inserts are not usually the answer. They may help, but are more expensive than water changes. (Unless you are doing some really expensive water prep!)
If you decide to look into this idea think about these things:
Once you get into a cycle of removing the ammonia with zeolite or other material you are starving the nitrifying bacteria. The population drops. Not all will die, but enough to cause problems if you are not diligent about keeping fresh ammonia removing media in the filter.
If you are irregular about swapping out the media then the fish will be exposed to varying levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate as the bacteria partially die off, then recover.
A typical scenario:
Aquarium keeper tests the water.
"Oh! No! Ammonia!!!"
Quick, add some zeolite. Take good care of replacing it several times. Tests again.
"Whew! No more ammonia!"
Slacks off about using zeolite. Tests.
"Oh! No! Ammonia!!!"
Quick, add some zeolite. Take good care of replacing it several times. Tests again.
"Whew! No more ammonia!" "But wait... Last time I quit using Zeolite the ammonia came back. Maybe better use it longer"
Keep repeating this sort of cycle.
From the bacteria point of view:
(Add zeolite)
"Hey! We are starving!" Population drops.
(Slack off about replacing Zeolite)
"Food! Lets reproduce!" Population starts to climb, but is not fast enough to remove all the ammonia.
(Aquarium keeper adds fresh zeolite)
"Hey! We are starving!" Population drops.
This is just not the right way to handle nitrogen accumulation in an aquarium.
Best option is to combine methods:
Less nitrogen in, and increased nitrogen removal with plants if possible, and with water changes.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
I ran your nitrates (60-80 ppm) and water change % (weekly 25%) in my water change wizard program. It estimates that 3 ppm of nitrates accumulate in your tank daily. If this is the case, then you'd need to do 25% water changes every other day for 2 weeks to get the Nitrates down to about 20 ppm.
Other equivalent water change options-
15% Daily
35% Twice Weekly
50% weekly (not recommended)
Drip system with .5 gallon per hour drip rate.
I agree with Diana about using plants in combination with water changes. That's what I do. I use house plants (philodendrons) and hang their roots in the water. I also have several species of aquatic plants that help a little. I also use a continuous drip system for water changes.
I feed my fish rather heavily in the morning and at night. Cutting back on nitrate producers (food) usually isn't a good option for me, unless I go on vacation. When I do cut back on feedings, the clowns will dig for snails and planaria. Recently I skipped a few night time feedings and it looked like a tornado hit my planted tank when the lights turned on in the morning. All the plants were dug up and there were large piles of gravel and empty shells everywhere. Lesson learned.
Other equivalent water change options-
15% Daily
35% Twice Weekly
50% weekly (not recommended)
Drip system with .5 gallon per hour drip rate.
I agree with Diana about using plants in combination with water changes. That's what I do. I use house plants (philodendrons) and hang their roots in the water. I also have several species of aquatic plants that help a little. I also use a continuous drip system for water changes.
I feed my fish rather heavily in the morning and at night. Cutting back on nitrate producers (food) usually isn't a good option for me, unless I go on vacation. When I do cut back on feedings, the clowns will dig for snails and planaria. Recently I skipped a few night time feedings and it looked like a tornado hit my planted tank when the lights turned on in the morning. All the plants were dug up and there were large piles of gravel and empty shells everywhere. Lesson learned.
Thank you for your response, I just removed the zeolite i added earlier today (oops). I do have 4 small anubias,2 very large red amazon swords, a bed of Jave fern and another crypt i have know idea what it is. But the plants are not doing so well, they are growing new leaves but the leaves are thin and tend to get a small amount of algea on them. Maybe i'll try to do more water changes, I was doing 25% twice a week but my lfs said i was nuts and going to kill the fish since public water changes so much. It's all just getting a little frustrating. Do you think more water changes will hurt the Bacteria colonys. Again Thank you for taking the time to help me with this issue.
100 gallon with 1 Clown Loach,2 satanoperca leucosticta , 1 geophagus dicrozoster,1 geo pindare, 2 Long finned albino bristlenose. 75gal with single Red Devil
I to cant keep my filament's from eating everything but the java fern. One thing that has slowed them down is once or twice a week i put a Romaine lettuce leaf in the tank overnight so that way the Gold Nugget gets some as well. I almost got rid of them but they keep the tank so active and they are beautiful when they mature. One other thing i would like to ask, Do you think i am over stocked in my 75 with 3 Clowns,5 Filaments,7 Tiger barbs and one Gold Nugget Pleco. Maybe i should start another post for that qeustion instead of dealing with two issue's.
100 gallon with 1 Clown Loach,2 satanoperca leucosticta , 1 geophagus dicrozoster,1 geo pindare, 2 Long finned albino bristlenose. 75gal with single Red Devil
Test the tap water every time if it is so variable. Keep a log. See if there is any pattern to it. Call the water company and find out if it is something they are doing (adding something, or changing water sources). You might find (Through testing) that the tap water is more stable than the LFS folks think.
Fish live in balance with the minerals in the water. They can handle small changes in the mineral levels that happen with water changes, but larger changes in mineral levels can harm them.
Figure out what the difference is between the tank and the tap. (Post the numbers here for help). GH, KH and TDS (if you have a meter)
If the net change when a water change is done ends up being less than:
1 degree lower GH or KH
2 degrees higher GH or KH
10% lower TDS
15% higher TDS
the fish (and bacteria) will be fine.
If the tap water is softer than the tank water you can add some minerals to make it match. (Or at least close enough to do more or larger water changes safely)
If the tap water is harder than the tank water then there are several ways to handle this:
Do smaller water changes so the total change in mineral levels is smaller....
Add reverse osmosis water to the tap water to dilute the minerals.
Until you get all this sorted out do as many frequent small changes as you can. Small water changes will change the mineral level the least (and safest amount) but will not affect the nitrate level very much. So do a lot of them. Chefkeith's numbers can be relied on, that is a good calculator! Just gotta keep up with the water changes. The fish are adding more ammonia (nitrogen) to the water every day. You need to do large enough water changes to remove all that plus the accumulation that has happened so far.
My filimentosas ate my Crypt. pontederiifolia
I should move some Anubias over to that tank. I have a large one in another tank...
Plants will be of the most help when they are growing really fast. Swords can do this. Java Fern, Anubias and Crypts are not known for being great nitrogen sinks. Even in good light they just do not grow very fast.
Fish live in balance with the minerals in the water. They can handle small changes in the mineral levels that happen with water changes, but larger changes in mineral levels can harm them.
Figure out what the difference is between the tank and the tap. (Post the numbers here for help). GH, KH and TDS (if you have a meter)
If the net change when a water change is done ends up being less than:
1 degree lower GH or KH
2 degrees higher GH or KH
10% lower TDS
15% higher TDS
the fish (and bacteria) will be fine.
If the tap water is softer than the tank water you can add some minerals to make it match. (Or at least close enough to do more or larger water changes safely)
If the tap water is harder than the tank water then there are several ways to handle this:
Do smaller water changes so the total change in mineral levels is smaller....
Add reverse osmosis water to the tap water to dilute the minerals.
Until you get all this sorted out do as many frequent small changes as you can. Small water changes will change the mineral level the least (and safest amount) but will not affect the nitrate level very much. So do a lot of them. Chefkeith's numbers can be relied on, that is a good calculator! Just gotta keep up with the water changes. The fish are adding more ammonia (nitrogen) to the water every day. You need to do large enough water changes to remove all that plus the accumulation that has happened so far.
My filimentosas ate my Crypt. pontederiifolia
I should move some Anubias over to that tank. I have a large one in another tank...
Plants will be of the most help when they are growing really fast. Swords can do this. Java Fern, Anubias and Crypts are not known for being great nitrogen sinks. Even in good light they just do not grow very fast.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Keeping up with the nitrates will indeed help. Several fish diseases (Fin rot, Columnaris and others) are worse when the nitrates are too high. Frequent water changes will help reduce them. Not much with any one water change, bit over time the nitrates will get lower.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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