Hi all Help please Clown loach is sick! mouth and bumps!

[kevy1]

Hi I have a 4 foot tank which we think we keep in good order and do a 50-60% water change every week, we alway use the tetra safe treatment each time we do a water change, anyway one of our loaches (we have 3 adults and 3 younsters) has been sick for around a week 10 days! he first lost his colour and went ghost like,liitle bumps near his tail appeared and he started to stuggle to swim straight,he was all over the place and just couldn't keep upright!
But the colour has returned, he's swimming well however he's mouth has changed compared to the others! he always hides behind a big shell, doesnt' look good! Bumps still there near tail although gone down!
One of the others has developed a white covering over one of his eyes,we are totally lost of how we can can help them?????
As you all know they have charm and one cant help feeling sorry for them!
4ft Clear seal tank has a Fluval 4 plus filter, good sponges, water temp is always in green,
Fish in tank one big Plec, 2 Gourami, 7 Tetras, one large pink tail cigar shark, 6 sword tails (one male) 3 adults Loaches and 3 youngsters. we change plants when they look tatty, the only thing we dont have is a Ph testing kit, as we thought with regular water changes that wouldnt be neccessary? Ps we have had tank for 11 months and lost only 2 fish one loach died over night and a Tetra,but thats all so far!!
Any help would be appreicated.
Thanks
Kev

[kevy1]

Pet shop reckons he could have something stcuk in his mouth, ie gravel and to net him and try to remove with tweezers! has anyone tried this?

[Hokum]

Water stats! You sound seriously over stocked in a 4 footer. How many Litres/Gallons?

[glenna]

why would something "stuck in the mouth" give your bumps on your tail?
(are you sure he does not have a secret GF on the side?)

okay, just kidding, but really.

And what about the other loach's eye.
That speaks to maybe an infectious process.
Anybody else have thoughts about it?

[Diana]

Fish can get several different diseases and parasites.
Poor water conditions can make the fish look like they have a disease.
Please describe the 'bumps' better:
Color:
Size:
How fast did they grow or appear?
Did it look like an internal problem, a swelling sort of thing?
Or something 'stuck on' the outside of the fish?

White or grey coating on part or all the fish (usually not the eyes) may be a disease called Flavobacteria columnaris. Google some images and see if this looks like what your fish have. It is a common bacterial infection in water with high nitrates.

White or grey over the eyes is a different issue, and may be irritation or infection. For example, some fish kept in a plastic bucket may get irritated eyes. Poor water quality can irritate their eyes.

Mouth changed: How? What looks different? Odd color? A growth/bump/thing? Misaligned? cannot open or close?

If there is any way you can get your water tested, please do. If you take a sample to a store please record the results as numbers and units, not 'Oh it is OK'

Ammonia: in ppm
Nitrite: ppm
Nitrate: ppm
GH: either ppm or German degrees of hardness
KH: either ppm or German degrees of hardness
pH: (no units- pH is simply a number)

Ammonia: can burn the gills and tender tissues (including over the eyes)
Nitrite: causes a disease called 'Brown Blood Disease'
Both ammonia and nitrite should read 0 ppm in a healthy tank.

Nitrate can cause a general sort of unthriftiness, or stress that can open the door to other diseases and parasites attacking the fish. Poor immunity allows these other problems to take over.
Nitrate should be kept under 20 ppm in a healthy tank. This is where having your own test kit is helpful. You can fine tune your water change schedule to keep the nitrates as low as possible.

GH, KH and pH are tests that show if the water is suited to these fish.
Most of your fish (Loaches, Tetras, most catfish, Gouramis) prefer soft neutral or acidic water. Swordtails are hard water fish, preferring hard, alkaline water.

[kevy1]

Thank you for all replies, we have dont some more reserch and it seems it was greying! apparently they dual and lock mouths to determine dominant ifsh and this can leave their mouths looking damaged, in answer to question about tank and the mouth was gaping open and feelers pointing straight out rather than down! This morning however he looks much better, colour back to normal so perhaps there was a tiff in the tank

Tank is 4ft by 1 ft deep 140 ltr capacity, is that def to small? our Wyvale tropical fish shop reckons plenty of room??? although we might buy a new Rena tank soon?

Water was tested at pet shop and said it was fine as we water change every week without fail, he even siad we might be stressing fish by changing too much! anyway we are novices but are proud to have only lost two in just under a year.
Thanks again for advice peeps

[Diana]

140 liters is pretty close to 37 American gallons, or 30 Imperial gallons.

A tank that is 4' x 1' will be about 14" in the other direction.

This is way too small for Clown Loaches. These fish can grow to a foot long, though this takes some time. They need plenty of space for their territory, too. While they are social, they are also individuals, and, as you have found out, they will get into minor brawls. They need enough space to get away from each other, enough driftwood and rock caves and hide-aways for each fish to have a place. They may often fall asleep in one or 2 caves and ignore the others. But when they argue the other caves are there for them to spread out.
Your tank might be OK for Clowns up to about 3" long, but I would move them into a larger tank by the time they reach 3".

I see 2 options:
1) Get a much larger tank. Something like 100 gallon minimum (around 400 liters) Move your other large fish into it with the Clown Loaches. Most Plecos, probably the 'Cigar Shark' (What is this? A Rainbow Shark?)
2) Get smaller Loaches for this tank. This size and shape is great for a river tank, have a look at Hillstream Loaches and similar fish (Darters, Gobies, White Cloud Minnows, Danios). No single fish that grows larger than 2".
If that sort of tank is not for you, then think about Zebra Loaches, Kuhlies and similar small fish. I still would not get any fish much over 2", maybe 3", unless it was a really thin one like Kuhlie Loaches.

Most of the people here keep Clown Loaches in a tank at least 6' (2 meters) long, and over 100 gallons (over 400 liters).
Mine are just youngsters yet, but are in a 6' tank, 125 gallons.

Frequent or large water changes can stress the fish, but with some precautions need not be a problem, and in fact are good.

Fish are adjusted to the mineral level in the water. If that mineral level changes the fish need to adapt to the altered conditions. If the level changes just a bit, then there is no problem. If the mineral level changes a lot the fish will be stressed, may die.
The temperature should not change by more than 1*C or 2*F.

If your new water is the same as the water in the tank for temperature, GH and KH, then you can do as large a water change as you want, as often as needed to keep the NO3 low.
If the GH and KH are different in the new water then you should only do a small water change depending on how different the mineral levels are. You may do more frequent water changes if needed. There is a formula that can help figure this out.

Since you have been doing large water changes without problems I would think that any changes in the mineral levels are minor.
Keep on doing large water changes. This is not stressing your fish.
The small tank is probably stressing the fish.
Think of keeping a litter of Labrador puppies in an apartment. Not a problem when they are all very small, but they grow fast!

[chefkeith]

It's also possible that the water parameters of the source tap water changed.

I wouldn't be doing huge water changes without knowing exactly what the water parameters are of both the tap water and the aquarium water. The LFS, simply saying that the water "is fine" is not good enough. In particular, you should be tracking the TDS, Nitrates, Nitrite, Ammonia, GH, KH, and pH.

Just one question-
How big is a big Plec?

[kevy1]

Hi thanks for reply the water has been tested a few times recently at our local tropical fish center, always comes back good, they always say the tank is plenty big enough but I am unsure now after reading these comments, our Loaches are 3 inches and our younsters 1 inch.
The plec is around 7 inches long,and chuncky a bit of a monster really.
After reading all replies I am looking to buy a much bigger tank for them as soon as I can afford one?

[kevy1]

140 liters is pretty close to 37 American gallons, or 30 Imperial gallons.

A tank that is 4' x 1' will be about 14" in the other direction.

This is way too small for Clown Loaches. These fish can grow to a foot long, though this takes some time. They need plenty of space for their territory, too. While they are social, they are also individuals, and, as you have found out, they will get into minor brawls. They need enough space to get away from each other, enough driftwood and rock caves and hide-aways for each fish to have a place. They may often fall asleep in one or 2 caves and ignore the others. But when they argue the other caves are there for them to spread out.
Your tank might be OK for Clowns up to about 3" long, but I would move them into a larger tank by the time they reach 3".

I see 2 options:
1) Get a much larger tank. Something like 100 gallon minimum (around 400 liters) Move your other large fish into it with the Clown Loaches. Most Plecos, probably the 'Cigar Shark' (What is this? A Rainbow Shark?)
2) Get smaller Loaches for this tank. This size and shape is great for a river tank, have a look at Hillstream Loaches and similar fish (Darters, Gobies, White Cloud Minnows, Danios). No single fish that grows larger than 2".
If that sort of tank is not for you, then think about Zebra Loaches, Kuhlies and similar small fish. I still would not get any fish much over 2", maybe 3", unless it was a really thin one like Kuhlie Loaches.

Most of the people here keep Clown Loaches in a tank at least 6' (2 meters) long, and over 100 gallons (over 400 liters).
Mine are just youngsters yet, but are in a 6' tank, 125 gallons.

Frequent or large water changes can stress the fish, but with some precautions need not be a problem, and in fact are good.

Fish are adjusted to the mineral level in the water. If that mineral level changes the fish need to adapt to the altered conditions. If the level changes just a bit, then there is no problem. If the mineral level changes a lot the fish will be stressed, may die.
The temperature should not change by more than 1*C or 2*F.

If your new water is the same as the water in the tank for temperature, GH and KH, then you can do as large a water change as you want, as often as needed to keep the NO3 low.
If the GH and KH are different in the new water then you should only do a small water change depending on how different the mineral levels are. You may do more frequent water changes if needed. There is a formula that can help figure this out.

Since you have been doing large water changes without problems I would think that any changes in the mineral levels are minor.
Keep on doing large water changes. This is not stressing your fish.
The small tank is probably stressing the fish.
Think of keeping a litter of Labrador puppies in an apartment. Not a problem when they are all very small, but they grow fast!

Hi Diana Cigar shark is like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTATFcBGAAY
mone is a bit samller than that but is getting bigger, I have heard them being called pink tail cigar sharks? but as stated am a novice, am looking at buying a bigger 400 litre tank asasp.

[Diana]

http://www.aquariacentral.com/fishinfo/ ... hark.shtml

Large, schooling fish. Similar to the Bala Shark: Not suited to most aquariums. May jump, may dash from one end of the tank to the other. Best kept in a group, minimum of 6. Well, 6 fish @ 20" each will take a BIG tank!

I would return this fish.

Anyway, nothing to do with a sick clown Loach.