Unfortunately, it seems that you have more than one issue, this confuses everything. You may have parasites (1), some behavioral problems (2), and some water problems (3).
Parasites would be the most serious.
All right, lets try a picture.
Please look here
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?p=16470#16470
and see if there is any similarity to your red spots. The spots on the fish were red but turned brown by the time I made a picture. The spots on the fish were made by nematodes, breaking through the body. Notice the anal discharge too.
Is this what you are describing?
If yes, you do need levamisole and nothing else will really work.
Post a thread with a title
How to get levamisole in Canada
and hopefully someone will respond.
Observe that if you have a friend in the US, this person can get levamisole for you and express mail it to you, you will have it on Friday if you move now.
hth
med question
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
Mike this is NOT what they had!
If you take the whole are on the belly from the front fins to almost the back bottom fins that is the size of the redness.
Those pics of yours look very much like a hole being burrowed out.
Mine is more like a massive red bruise but on both sides of the body.
Anyway I got rid of the behavioural problems with getting rid of the female gourami.
And what water problems do youn think I have since the parameters check out.?
The only thing is the rapid distress they had today after adding the charcoal.
I am wondering about the food if it is sour.
Please check my previous message today for events that have occured since 11 am.
Thanks
Oh this fish rescue stuff is bad! I see you do it too! I have 2 rescued goldies too. Fortunatley one is healthy: the other has major swimbladder issues.
I currently have 6 tanks up and running as well as a couple of bowls with bettas. and the 20 gal is the only one with probs
I do not know anyone in the US that could send the levasol.
If you take the whole are on the belly from the front fins to almost the back bottom fins that is the size of the redness.
Those pics of yours look very much like a hole being burrowed out.
Mine is more like a massive red bruise but on both sides of the body.
Anyway I got rid of the behavioural problems with getting rid of the female gourami.
And what water problems do youn think I have since the parameters check out.?
The only thing is the rapid distress they had today after adding the charcoal.
I am wondering about the food if it is sour.
Please check my previous message today for events that have occured since 11 am.
Thanks
Oh this fish rescue stuff is bad! I see you do it too! I have 2 rescued goldies too. Fortunatley one is healthy: the other has major swimbladder issues.
I currently have 6 tanks up and running as well as a couple of bowls with bettas. and the 20 gal is the only one with probs
I do not know anyone in the US that could send the levasol.
Well, because they are exactly these kinds of holes.mousey wrote:Mike this is NOT what they had!
If you take the whole are on the belly from the front fins to almost the back bottom fins that is the size of the redness.
Those pics of yours look very much like a hole being burrowed out.
Mine is more like a massive red bruise but on both sides of the body.
(But sometimes they look just like red spots, 1-3mm in diameter, not holes).
OK, good we looked at this, this diminishes the chances of this being worms and moves it toward a water problem or bacteria.
IMO, deworming is still an absolute must, just to cover this angle and not to think about this anymore. A Tapeworm is likely what killed your non-growing loach, and you may have more problems at any time, so do get levamisole.
Post a thread asking about getting it in Canada.
Call the place I mentioned above and see if they can ship.
Etc.
Now, there could be a lot of different things causing redness.
One thing you should do now is to go to the emergency section of TFF and ask there. Give the full picture. Wilder who usually answers queries is pretty good, and she probably will say something useful.
Link:
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showforum=2
Lets see what she says, and think about the next step.
I'm sorry, no immediate ideas. Check your tap water (unclear: did you also do a water change today? --if yes, check tap). Do they still seem to have a problem? Increase the aeration, this always helps. If the tap is ok and you have not done a water change in the last day, do like 20%, it tends to give the fish some energy.And what water problems do youn think I have since the parameters check out.?
The only thing is the rapid distress they had today after adding the charcoal.
I am wondering about the food if it is sour.
Did, unfortunately no instant ideas.Please check my previous message today for events that have occured since 11 am.
And I have as of an hour ago 8 more loaches from the store that sells Nematodes. Very carefully examined for spots, but I know what to expect....Anyway, they do have better chances here.Oh this fish rescue stuff is bad! I see you do it too! I have 2 rescued goldies too. Fortunatley one is healthy: the other has major swimbladder issues.
and I bet they are not the least bit repentant that they sell you sick fish!
The guys t Big Al's said oh well, it has to happen to you once in a while( meaning that I can expect to occasionally get somefish carrying something) Poop to that.
Good luck with your loaches!!
I am going to remove the charcoal if I can get the fluval open. Arthritis in fingers does not help and usually hubby does it for me. Unfortunately he won't be home til midnight.
The airation has helped some and they are looking a bit better.
Prob the weekly feasting on the antiparasitic food will help. It contains the levasol.
The guys t Big Al's said oh well, it has to happen to you once in a while( meaning that I can expect to occasionally get somefish carrying something) Poop to that.
Good luck with your loaches!!
I am going to remove the charcoal if I can get the fluval open. Arthritis in fingers does not help and usually hubby does it for me. Unfortunately he won't be home til midnight.
The airation has helped some and they are looking a bit better.
Prob the weekly feasting on the antiparasitic food will help. It contains the levasol.
lol. mousey relax. certainly no war. not even a good spirited exchange. I don't even know the guy. obviously not sure i want too--lol. some personalities are just never meant to get along. i guess the i react to certain things is the problem.
But, i had read your comments earlier today when i was passing through on my way to somewhere else. Interestingly I had been thinking of your problems and had been hoping you would start to flesh out the details. Thanks for doing so. It helps to understand things a bit better. Still a lot like a roll of the dice when figuring out disease issues on-line though. None of us can see your fish, observe the fish, or have a standard of reference of how they had been. Makes it tough sometimes. And, unfortunately you have what i think of as an "interesting situation".
Red Sore disease. It is not really a disease at all. Rather a complex of symptoms. Here are a few excerpts from the University of Florida that i had copied to my hard drive this morning when working on something else. They are what made me think fleetingly of this thread.
-- Typically, "red sore disease" is caused by two organisms, Aeromonas hydrophila , a bacterium, and Heteropolaria sp. (formerly Epistylis sp.), a protozoan.
--Both of these organisms are found in aquatic environments and are capable of causing disease. Red sore disease will often run its course, and fish may recover without treatment.
--Red sore disease is a generic term that describes a physical condition of fish rather than referring to a specific disease agent.
--Sores caused by Heteropolaria sp . can be characterized by white-grey, cotton-like patches on the body surface or the fins. Due to the irritation, the fish will "flash," or rub, to rid itself of the parasite, causing scale loss and ulceration of the already damaged area. This allows the bacterium Aeromonas hydrophila to enter.
--In its mildest form, the condition is seen as red, raised "sores," or lesions, on the tips of fins. As the disease progresses, fish may be afflicted with fin erosion, and ulcers on the side of their body. Because red sore disease is a general condition rather than a specific disease, affected fish must be sent to a fish disease diagnostic laboratory in order to correctly identify the pathogens contributing to each outbreak of disease.
Not saying this is what you had. Rather that Aeromonas hydrophila is not the only member of Aeromonas sp. in our tanks. Any of the other Aeromonas sp. can create the same look--or slightly different but similar appearance. Many times you will see white or gray around the edges of sores with an Aeromonas origin. Always red sores. typically some type of abrasion or ulceration.
To change thoughts for a minute though. The stocking levels in your tank are at best what i would call heavy. That creates stress. Also, you have "community" tanks. Not species specific, biotope, or even continebt specific. That creates additional stress. Fish need room to move. And, room to get away from one another. They also need to communicate with one another. Communications achieved through coloration, fin and body movement, as well as the creation of sounds. Fish from Afhganistan do not speak the same language as fish from Brazil. The compromised communication also creates stress.
Why is stress important. The immune system does not respond to naturally defend fishes as well under stress. An interesting study was performed this summer by the Department of natural Resources in the state of Wisconsin here in the States. They studied fish caught in "catch and release" fishing tournaments. They clipped the caudal fin of each fish caught. Then waited two days for the massive fish die offs that occur after each of these tournaments. What they found was that nearly every fish in the die off was one that had been hooked, maintained by the fisherman during the day, and then released after being registered. They expected to find internal and external bacteria as the culprits. Afterall the fish had open wounds from being hooked and significant slime coat damage from the handling. what they found was surprising. The fish universally died from a virus. The stress on the fish was sufficient to cause something that the fish lived with on a daily basis to suddenly die.
The point of the story is that fish do not thrive--or even survive--under certain stress levels. Combative tankmates, tankmates they are not able to deal with as a result of different communications methods, and insufficient space cause significant stress.
Still on a tangent i guess--or more of a general discussion of your situation. Back to stocking levels. They create a fish load--just one part of the bioload. The food you feed--it is organic--is another component. The bacteria and parasitic load is yet another. The waste generated by the above yet another. The tank contains Dissolved Organic Compounds (fish continually excrete hormones, pheremones, lipids, amino acids, proteins...) these need to be exported from the tank. Bacteria and parasite alike feed off the available organics in the substrate and water column.
Which starts to bring me to thinking of near and longer term solutions. Water changes--freshwater fish love freshwater. Increase the frequency and volume. Shoot for a target of at least 50% weekly with concurrent thorough gravel vacs of open substrate areas. You cannot begin to do that with a simple change though..
Why? Water chemistry changes. With all the organics in there reacting with one another the water does not remotely resemble that coming out of your tap. With the mineral accumulation that has occurred over time the Total Dissolved Solid content of the water is radically different. a one time change in volume from 25% to the 50%-60% range can kill many of your fish.
Start by changing the 20% volume you are accustomed to. Then 2 days later change 20% more. Then 2 days later change 20% more. Then 2 days later do it again. Then 2 days later do the 50%-60% change. Wait a week and do it again. Or better maybe is two 25% changes each week--i just do the 60% minimum change in my tanks weekly (even heavily planted tanks--got to reset the water chemistry)
Because of the water changes and substrate vacs you are also reducing bacterial, parasitic and viral loads. And there will be a presence of ecto parasites in your tank that need to be dealt with. Also, the vitality of the fish generally improves with lots of freshwater--so the immune response improves. Fish can live with lots of different species of bacteria and parasites present in a tank--if they are otherwise healthy. And the pathogen populations are managed to low levels.
Carbon--you do not need it if you get into regulat water change frequencies i was talking about--most GAC available on the market , especially that sold as inserts in the common filter pads are either of insufficient quality or utilized in insufficient volume to do much good. GAC does help a bit--if it is high quality GAC in sufficient Volume -- in your case to help out with organics in the water column--it is very effective at removing those through adsorption.
As to the crisis with the tank at this moment--get rid of the carbon, keep the air running to creat surface agitation facilitating gas exchange. And, do another water change. Sounds like an impurity in the GAC found its way into the water column,
Did the first fish die of a tapeworm--got any tea leaves? I am not smart enough to even guess. Maybe, maybe not. Fish live with many internal parasites, for many years, in the wild. and, in many ofo ur tanks. The stress of handling and shipping may have overwhelmed the natural defense mechanism permitting an explosion of the population causing significant internal damage. Don't know. Don't know enough to guess. Any answer provided could be correct.
Watch the fish--keep a close eye on fins--often an early warning area of infection. any indication of red sores. change water, medicate with antibiotics.
Abraded skin--it fits so well with a bacteria guess. Do you have a small, smooth aggregate substrate? If not, get one.
Given the state of affairs--other than the terrible event with GAC it sounds like you are turning things around. Essential in keeping them turned around is pristine water. And, maybe an examination of stocking. if a tank looks a bit empty--it is usually stocked to the right level. Think about, ask about it, discuss the pros and cons of species or biotope tanks. I know in developing as a fishkeeper stocking levels made a tremendous difference in the fecundity and longevity of my fish.
The same can be said of water changes. Think of fishkeeping from a different angle. Think of it as being a keeper of water with fish along for the ride. If you get the water right, consistently fresh, most basic health issues vanish. Some of the nastier internal parasite issues may surface at that point. But, then you will usually know right away what the problem is; stuff hanging from anus, red/inflamed anus. inflamed vent, pinching of the belly, thinning...change in feeding activity and level--those things point to internal issue.
I am not a big believer in pop prognosticating. Too many other environmental influences other than parasites. Only sure sign i have ever had with that method is explosive mucousy emissions--the fish excreting its own guts, By then it is usually too late.
i hope it helped. If nothing else you can start to see the way I think about fish and their health. it is not really an event thing. it is an overall tank thing. if treated as events you never really get healthy fish--you race from one problem to the next. ultimately the fish die young, or fight disease every step of the way.
Given the descriptions you gave i do suspect an internal parasite may be at work. but, that is not the primary issue. Rather you have either an ecto parsite working in concert with bacteria. or just a strong Aeromonas sp strain that is taking advantage of any opening it can get. Sort of think Big Als got you on the right track. If we work at getting external issues resolved it may buy you enough time to get to the possible internal parasitic presence. The key there is the water. Needs to be clean, clean, clean. Fresh, fresh. fresh.
oh, make a decision. temp. don't compromise one fish species for another. get species that all thrive at the same temp ranges. or, rearrange tanks so that all like type species go in like type tank. The key to getting and keeping fish healthy long term is to get them in environments that permit them to thrive--not survive. Thrive environments create very little chance for opportunistic pathogens, Survive environments usually go from mal event to mal event.
one use of temp can be to crank it up to impede some parasite reproduction. Or, crank it up to speed the metabolism of the fish--in theory improving immune response--but so many variables there that it is a whole other discussion.
Why the ramble? if the total environment of the tank is not addressed it is impossible to resolve fish health issues on a long lasting basis. There is so much more to it than simply tossing in antibiotics and anti parasitics. Although, doing what Big Als's said in your instance was exactly right. Antibiotics and medicated foods.
Can you get Parasite Clear in Canada? Can you get metronidazole (there is an easy recipe to make your own medicated foods since the levamisole bath is not available as an option for you)? Can you get the Maracyn, Maracyn 2 type products? Maybe i should just go log on to big als and change from the us store to the canadian store--be easier.
Sorry for any typos--just turned into too long a post .
and obviously i should stay at one task at a time--started earlier today--had things to attend to. i hate having a job. love the wife though--she was a good distraction. glad to see from your latest update the fish are coming around.
But, i had read your comments earlier today when i was passing through on my way to somewhere else. Interestingly I had been thinking of your problems and had been hoping you would start to flesh out the details. Thanks for doing so. It helps to understand things a bit better. Still a lot like a roll of the dice when figuring out disease issues on-line though. None of us can see your fish, observe the fish, or have a standard of reference of how they had been. Makes it tough sometimes. And, unfortunately you have what i think of as an "interesting situation".
Red Sore disease. It is not really a disease at all. Rather a complex of symptoms. Here are a few excerpts from the University of Florida that i had copied to my hard drive this morning when working on something else. They are what made me think fleetingly of this thread.
-- Typically, "red sore disease" is caused by two organisms, Aeromonas hydrophila , a bacterium, and Heteropolaria sp. (formerly Epistylis sp.), a protozoan.
--Both of these organisms are found in aquatic environments and are capable of causing disease. Red sore disease will often run its course, and fish may recover without treatment.
--Red sore disease is a generic term that describes a physical condition of fish rather than referring to a specific disease agent.
--Sores caused by Heteropolaria sp . can be characterized by white-grey, cotton-like patches on the body surface or the fins. Due to the irritation, the fish will "flash," or rub, to rid itself of the parasite, causing scale loss and ulceration of the already damaged area. This allows the bacterium Aeromonas hydrophila to enter.
--In its mildest form, the condition is seen as red, raised "sores," or lesions, on the tips of fins. As the disease progresses, fish may be afflicted with fin erosion, and ulcers on the side of their body. Because red sore disease is a general condition rather than a specific disease, affected fish must be sent to a fish disease diagnostic laboratory in order to correctly identify the pathogens contributing to each outbreak of disease.
Not saying this is what you had. Rather that Aeromonas hydrophila is not the only member of Aeromonas sp. in our tanks. Any of the other Aeromonas sp. can create the same look--or slightly different but similar appearance. Many times you will see white or gray around the edges of sores with an Aeromonas origin. Always red sores. typically some type of abrasion or ulceration.
To change thoughts for a minute though. The stocking levels in your tank are at best what i would call heavy. That creates stress. Also, you have "community" tanks. Not species specific, biotope, or even continebt specific. That creates additional stress. Fish need room to move. And, room to get away from one another. They also need to communicate with one another. Communications achieved through coloration, fin and body movement, as well as the creation of sounds. Fish from Afhganistan do not speak the same language as fish from Brazil. The compromised communication also creates stress.
Why is stress important. The immune system does not respond to naturally defend fishes as well under stress. An interesting study was performed this summer by the Department of natural Resources in the state of Wisconsin here in the States. They studied fish caught in "catch and release" fishing tournaments. They clipped the caudal fin of each fish caught. Then waited two days for the massive fish die offs that occur after each of these tournaments. What they found was that nearly every fish in the die off was one that had been hooked, maintained by the fisherman during the day, and then released after being registered. They expected to find internal and external bacteria as the culprits. Afterall the fish had open wounds from being hooked and significant slime coat damage from the handling. what they found was surprising. The fish universally died from a virus. The stress on the fish was sufficient to cause something that the fish lived with on a daily basis to suddenly die.
The point of the story is that fish do not thrive--or even survive--under certain stress levels. Combative tankmates, tankmates they are not able to deal with as a result of different communications methods, and insufficient space cause significant stress.
Still on a tangent i guess--or more of a general discussion of your situation. Back to stocking levels. They create a fish load--just one part of the bioload. The food you feed--it is organic--is another component. The bacteria and parasitic load is yet another. The waste generated by the above yet another. The tank contains Dissolved Organic Compounds (fish continually excrete hormones, pheremones, lipids, amino acids, proteins...) these need to be exported from the tank. Bacteria and parasite alike feed off the available organics in the substrate and water column.
Which starts to bring me to thinking of near and longer term solutions. Water changes--freshwater fish love freshwater. Increase the frequency and volume. Shoot for a target of at least 50% weekly with concurrent thorough gravel vacs of open substrate areas. You cannot begin to do that with a simple change though..
Why? Water chemistry changes. With all the organics in there reacting with one another the water does not remotely resemble that coming out of your tap. With the mineral accumulation that has occurred over time the Total Dissolved Solid content of the water is radically different. a one time change in volume from 25% to the 50%-60% range can kill many of your fish.
Start by changing the 20% volume you are accustomed to. Then 2 days later change 20% more. Then 2 days later change 20% more. Then 2 days later do it again. Then 2 days later do the 50%-60% change. Wait a week and do it again. Or better maybe is two 25% changes each week--i just do the 60% minimum change in my tanks weekly (even heavily planted tanks--got to reset the water chemistry)
Because of the water changes and substrate vacs you are also reducing bacterial, parasitic and viral loads. And there will be a presence of ecto parasites in your tank that need to be dealt with. Also, the vitality of the fish generally improves with lots of freshwater--so the immune response improves. Fish can live with lots of different species of bacteria and parasites present in a tank--if they are otherwise healthy. And the pathogen populations are managed to low levels.
Carbon--you do not need it if you get into regulat water change frequencies i was talking about--most GAC available on the market , especially that sold as inserts in the common filter pads are either of insufficient quality or utilized in insufficient volume to do much good. GAC does help a bit--if it is high quality GAC in sufficient Volume -- in your case to help out with organics in the water column--it is very effective at removing those through adsorption.
As to the crisis with the tank at this moment--get rid of the carbon, keep the air running to creat surface agitation facilitating gas exchange. And, do another water change. Sounds like an impurity in the GAC found its way into the water column,
Did the first fish die of a tapeworm--got any tea leaves? I am not smart enough to even guess. Maybe, maybe not. Fish live with many internal parasites, for many years, in the wild. and, in many ofo ur tanks. The stress of handling and shipping may have overwhelmed the natural defense mechanism permitting an explosion of the population causing significant internal damage. Don't know. Don't know enough to guess. Any answer provided could be correct.
Watch the fish--keep a close eye on fins--often an early warning area of infection. any indication of red sores. change water, medicate with antibiotics.
Abraded skin--it fits so well with a bacteria guess. Do you have a small, smooth aggregate substrate? If not, get one.
Given the state of affairs--other than the terrible event with GAC it sounds like you are turning things around. Essential in keeping them turned around is pristine water. And, maybe an examination of stocking. if a tank looks a bit empty--it is usually stocked to the right level. Think about, ask about it, discuss the pros and cons of species or biotope tanks. I know in developing as a fishkeeper stocking levels made a tremendous difference in the fecundity and longevity of my fish.
The same can be said of water changes. Think of fishkeeping from a different angle. Think of it as being a keeper of water with fish along for the ride. If you get the water right, consistently fresh, most basic health issues vanish. Some of the nastier internal parasite issues may surface at that point. But, then you will usually know right away what the problem is; stuff hanging from anus, red/inflamed anus. inflamed vent, pinching of the belly, thinning...change in feeding activity and level--those things point to internal issue.
I am not a big believer in pop prognosticating. Too many other environmental influences other than parasites. Only sure sign i have ever had with that method is explosive mucousy emissions--the fish excreting its own guts, By then it is usually too late.
i hope it helped. If nothing else you can start to see the way I think about fish and their health. it is not really an event thing. it is an overall tank thing. if treated as events you never really get healthy fish--you race from one problem to the next. ultimately the fish die young, or fight disease every step of the way.
Given the descriptions you gave i do suspect an internal parasite may be at work. but, that is not the primary issue. Rather you have either an ecto parsite working in concert with bacteria. or just a strong Aeromonas sp strain that is taking advantage of any opening it can get. Sort of think Big Als got you on the right track. If we work at getting external issues resolved it may buy you enough time to get to the possible internal parasitic presence. The key there is the water. Needs to be clean, clean, clean. Fresh, fresh. fresh.
oh, make a decision. temp. don't compromise one fish species for another. get species that all thrive at the same temp ranges. or, rearrange tanks so that all like type species go in like type tank. The key to getting and keeping fish healthy long term is to get them in environments that permit them to thrive--not survive. Thrive environments create very little chance for opportunistic pathogens, Survive environments usually go from mal event to mal event.
one use of temp can be to crank it up to impede some parasite reproduction. Or, crank it up to speed the metabolism of the fish--in theory improving immune response--but so many variables there that it is a whole other discussion.
Why the ramble? if the total environment of the tank is not addressed it is impossible to resolve fish health issues on a long lasting basis. There is so much more to it than simply tossing in antibiotics and anti parasitics. Although, doing what Big Als's said in your instance was exactly right. Antibiotics and medicated foods.
Can you get Parasite Clear in Canada? Can you get metronidazole (there is an easy recipe to make your own medicated foods since the levamisole bath is not available as an option for you)? Can you get the Maracyn, Maracyn 2 type products? Maybe i should just go log on to big als and change from the us store to the canadian store--be easier.
Sorry for any typos--just turned into too long a post .
and obviously i should stay at one task at a time--started earlier today--had things to attend to. i hate having a job. love the wife though--she was a good distraction. glad to see from your latest update the fish are coming around.
Right, not much of repenting.mousey wrote:and I bet they are not the least bit repentant that they sell you sick fish!
The guys t Big Al's said oh well, it has to happen to you once in a while( meaning that I can expect to occasionally get somefish carrying something) Poop to that.
Good luck with your loaches!!
Thanks. We'll see what happens.
Airation tends to help.I am going to remove the charcoal if I can get the fluval open. Arthritis in fingers does not help and usually hubby does it for me. Unfortunately he won't be home til midnight.
The airation has helped some and they are looking a bit better.
On Charcoal: you may want to replace it with fresh one, rather than remove. The problem is that you have right now several drugs in the tank already and may be close to damaging the biofilter when you put yet more drugs. You really don't want an ammonia/nitrite spike on top of other problems.
Hopefully, Wilder will have some ideas (expect her to answer tomorrow, she is in the UK), but one drug that may help is Minocycline (trade name: Maracyn2). Some of the red spots are septicimia infections which is gram-neg, Minocycline is one of two drugs that work. In the absense of any other information, I'd consider trying it. If it is not available, Tetrocycline is the other option, but it tends to be tougher on the biofilter.
Nope, it really does not help in most cases. It has very little levamisol, and oral intake is not as efficient as via gills. I've experimented with this.Prob the weekly feasting on the antiparasitic food will help. It contains the levasol.
a couple of last thoughts for the night.
http://www.fishpalace.org/Disease.html
A GREAT place to look at disease issues and gain a generalized knowledge base about some of the calamities that may strike. The site was developed by a wonderful woman (now an MD) to help people first on the diagnostic side. and then on the treatment and remediation side.
GAC. the stuff you put in there seemed to be coincidental with the rapid onset of another problem. Would not keep it in there. The water change last night and one would hope another tonight coupled with whatever adsorption has already occurred should export most of the meds. if you can get your hands on Black Diamond GAC try that. Long term i try to use practices that eliminate the need for the expense. lets you spend to get more tanks and fish--lol.
And, they are right--it happens. won't get any better. only worse. A lot of people circumvent the lfs route by buying directly from hobbyist breeders. And reputable wholesalers. The simple act of shipping and handling, however, even in those situations still bring encourages the onset of disease.
http://www.fishpalace.org/Disease.html
A GREAT place to look at disease issues and gain a generalized knowledge base about some of the calamities that may strike. The site was developed by a wonderful woman (now an MD) to help people first on the diagnostic side. and then on the treatment and remediation side.
GAC. the stuff you put in there seemed to be coincidental with the rapid onset of another problem. Would not keep it in there. The water change last night and one would hope another tonight coupled with whatever adsorption has already occurred should export most of the meds. if you can get your hands on Black Diamond GAC try that. Long term i try to use practices that eliminate the need for the expense. lets you spend to get more tanks and fish--lol.
And, they are right--it happens. won't get any better. only worse. A lot of people circumvent the lfs route by buying directly from hobbyist breeders. And reputable wholesalers. The simple act of shipping and handling, however, even in those situations still bring encourages the onset of disease.
thanks guys.
I did not succeed with the filter but with the extra O2 the fish seem to be their usual greedy self again. I am really wondering if the chloramine, minor tho it was triggered something off.
Sully what is it that you do? your ramblings are interesting.
trying to set up a tank is trickier than i would have believed. There is not always readily available info-- like it takes hours to pull out the info from the net and certainly even Big Al's will tell you all these fish can go together-- the water here is just fine. Not aalways true i am finding. Yes my tank is looking empty since I had4 of my fish die and have returned miss blue gourami.
The skirts are now sitting together which I haven't seen for a while.
fishkeeping is like gardeninmg-- you see a space and feel like something should fill it.
Our water is 193 hardness and ph 8.2.
i wonder about the fish food with the meds. I have read mixed reviews about them-- some say they work and others not.
The tetras refused to eat it as did the betta. She is curently in a bowl by herself and has had a flagyl treament or 2 plus the EM. She is looking real perky again.
I suspect that the EM plus the chloramine dribble may throw the tanks into a ammonia/nitrite spike.
i have just gone thru this procedure with 2 other tanks when I transfered fish into larger tanks. Despite moving all media and gravel,plants i still had a week of spikes and thus water changes.
Currently am fishless cycling another tank for a rescued goldy.
I generally do not bother with charcoal-- just for med extraction but haven't used it for a couple of years.
It is diffeicult to get rid of any fish. I have recently given away about 50 guppies and 20 platys. i s creen the recievers of all my fish.
Guess i will definitely be leaving fish in Q from now on for at least 1 month. What a bother!
Still unsure of the causative prob. Could have been the gourami bringing something in. Could have been the loach cooking something for 6 months. Dunno.
And the fact that 2 danios died --i have a friend who never did a water change-just topped up her tank when it was half empty-- she had a danio and skirt tetras that lived for years. Course she killed the 20 guppies i gave her. Stunted their growth in the toxic water.
She does not believe in cycling either! says I spend too much time worrying about my pets.
I suppose too the fact that most of my fish in the 20 gal are 4 years old except the guppies and betta goes against them too as far as immunity to pathogens goes when i add new fish.
Will try and resist the urge to add fish to that tank! Like I said, everything was going along well until the loach died and i added new fish.It sure is a mystery.
A friend who breeds bettas just lost a full tank females to ssomething. She said they just died one after another.
A neighbor added a new fish to her tank and lost all of her old fish except one angel. Makes you wonder too if there is some new disease starting up.
I did not succeed with the filter but with the extra O2 the fish seem to be their usual greedy self again. I am really wondering if the chloramine, minor tho it was triggered something off.
Sully what is it that you do? your ramblings are interesting.
trying to set up a tank is trickier than i would have believed. There is not always readily available info-- like it takes hours to pull out the info from the net and certainly even Big Al's will tell you all these fish can go together-- the water here is just fine. Not aalways true i am finding. Yes my tank is looking empty since I had4 of my fish die and have returned miss blue gourami.
The skirts are now sitting together which I haven't seen for a while.
fishkeeping is like gardeninmg-- you see a space and feel like something should fill it.
Our water is 193 hardness and ph 8.2.
i wonder about the fish food with the meds. I have read mixed reviews about them-- some say they work and others not.
The tetras refused to eat it as did the betta. She is curently in a bowl by herself and has had a flagyl treament or 2 plus the EM. She is looking real perky again.
I suspect that the EM plus the chloramine dribble may throw the tanks into a ammonia/nitrite spike.
i have just gone thru this procedure with 2 other tanks when I transfered fish into larger tanks. Despite moving all media and gravel,plants i still had a week of spikes and thus water changes.
Currently am fishless cycling another tank for a rescued goldy.
I generally do not bother with charcoal-- just for med extraction but haven't used it for a couple of years.
It is diffeicult to get rid of any fish. I have recently given away about 50 guppies and 20 platys. i s creen the recievers of all my fish.
Guess i will definitely be leaving fish in Q from now on for at least 1 month. What a bother!
Still unsure of the causative prob. Could have been the gourami bringing something in. Could have been the loach cooking something for 6 months. Dunno.
And the fact that 2 danios died --i have a friend who never did a water change-just topped up her tank when it was half empty-- she had a danio and skirt tetras that lived for years. Course she killed the 20 guppies i gave her. Stunted their growth in the toxic water.
She does not believe in cycling either! says I spend too much time worrying about my pets.
I suppose too the fact that most of my fish in the 20 gal are 4 years old except the guppies and betta goes against them too as far as immunity to pathogens goes when i add new fish.
Will try and resist the urge to add fish to that tank! Like I said, everything was going along well until the loach died and i added new fish.It sure is a mystery.
A friend who breeds bettas just lost a full tank females to ssomething. She said they just died one after another.
A neighbor added a new fish to her tank and lost all of her old fish except one angel. Makes you wonder too if there is some new disease starting up.
the effect of chloramine is a lot like the effect of carbon monoxide in humans. Both bind to hemoglobin preventing the uptake of oxygen by the blood. So, even a little chloramine hurts the home team. if the fish are not all that healthy to begin with and are fighting other water column issues they might react like yours. never seen it happen--or heard of it in other threads--with the nominal amount you are describing though.mousey wrote:thanks guys.
I did not succeed with the filter but with the extra O2 the fish seem to be their usual greedy self again. I am really wondering if the chloramine, minor tho it was triggered something off.
up.
Sully what is it that you do? your ramblings are interesting.
i own a small advertising and marketing communications company. I am usually more lucid when people pay me to write--lol. and more succinct. Clients are always afraid of my longer writings--they know the invoice will reflect it. It is fun, i get to learn a little about a lot of different "stuff". sort of semi retired.
and certainly even Big Al's will tell you all these fish can go together of course they will. many of the people at an lfs, on-line stores and chains do not know any better. unless you actually keep fish they can be difficult to understand. they can be simple to keep once you learn about the. the learning seems to be the toughest part.
The easiest thing to do is just keep in mind that freshwater fish love freshwater. give them lots of it and they usually thrive.
happy to report that everyone is ok this morning. No ammonia, no nitrites evryone eating etc.
So what ever it was was something transitory.
I have used a bit of carbon before too without seeing that effect after tap water wash. It's a mystery for sure.
I guess the next thing to find out is if I should treat the tank for internal parasitesSince i had a white poo fish in there before he died.
Between my 3 fish forums the general concensus is that the fish were septic.Not nice to be!
Don't know about medicated fish food either. Some swear by it others say it is useless.
Same with flagyl. I know in humans that it is an antibacterial and also is used for internal giardia. I guess what ever works.
So what ever it was was something transitory.
I have used a bit of carbon before too without seeing that effect after tap water wash. It's a mystery for sure.
I guess the next thing to find out is if I should treat the tank for internal parasitesSince i had a white poo fish in there before he died.
Between my 3 fish forums the general concensus is that the fish were septic.Not nice to be!
Don't know about medicated fish food either. Some swear by it others say it is useless.
Same with flagyl. I know in humans that it is an antibacterial and also is used for internal giardia. I guess what ever works.
the value of medicated food varies. the components being is the med contained in the effective against the type of parasite in the gut of the fish. Not all meds kill all parasites.
Another problem with medicated foods is getting the dose required to kill parasites to the gut of the fish. In part it becomes a question of med strength. fish meds are not subject to the same controls as human meds. label requirements are not regulated at all well. as a result some medicated foods don't quite come out the way they should.
The other problem is getting the fish to eat the meicated foods in the quantity required. a bad case of internal infestation will seriously degrade the fishes appetite. little food in that case=little meds to the source of the problem.
as a trick you might think of a little garlic. helps the fish expel parasites from the gut, has been one of the most used anti parasitics in history, and seemingly generates increased eating levles.
Another problem with medicated foods is getting the dose required to kill parasites to the gut of the fish. In part it becomes a question of med strength. fish meds are not subject to the same controls as human meds. label requirements are not regulated at all well. as a result some medicated foods don't quite come out the way they should.
The other problem is getting the fish to eat the meicated foods in the quantity required. a bad case of internal infestation will seriously degrade the fishes appetite. little food in that case=little meds to the source of the problem.
as a trick you might think of a little garlic. helps the fish expel parasites from the gut, has been one of the most used anti parasitics in history, and seemingly generates increased eating levles.
Hi mousey,
Sorry I did not chime in on this sooner.
Having just gone through a bout with what I think was Bacterial hemmorrhagic septicimia I thought I'd direct you here:
http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in ... eatment%22
and to a relatively recent thread here:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0
and to my experience with it including a pic of my dead clown here:
.............edit................posted the same link twice
here is the right one:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2327&start=0
difficult to say if BHS is what was in your tank, but if the consensus from your other investigating leads to that, this information would have been helpful if I'd gotten it to you sooner. I do apologize.
It seemed you were getting so much advice that I didn't want to muddy the waters further...
I hope things are stabilizing for you and your fish. My 55 is stable at the moment, and I am still looking to re-house the clowns. All of the rest survived and I did not treat with oxytetracycline. Most likely the largest clown succumbed because for one reason or another he was succeptible. In my case the only signs I really had were the increased redness in the caudal and rapid respiration. I did not notice any loss of appetite or change in behavior and once the redness and respiration was noticed it was likely too late for him unless I had the appropriate medication on hand and knew definitively to use it.
The reality is that I most likely would NOT have used it because I would not have considered it could have been BHS in the first place, in spite of being aware of the signs of the disease. It can take out a fish tank so quickly that unless you jump right to that conclusion it will often be too late. I should have known better...
First line of defense for me is almost always water changes. Apparently the combination of a too large water change (here I have to be sure to do less than 50% or I do get tank problems--don't know why...wish I was a chemist sometimes) and removing too much plant growth destabilized the tank and led to a mini cycle which caused all the fish to suffer and was the last straw for the large clown.
Valuable learning experience, but sheesh! Losing fish is extremely stressful, especially when you don't know what it was or how to treat it. I do feel for your recent debacle and hope all is better now.
regarding medicated food:
I have never been able to get any of my fish to eat it, even if I withold food for 3 days and feed nothing else. In fact, I have a rather large supply of it from several years ago (which I will dispose of).
Garlic did work to get my royal to start eating again. . .
Sorry I did not chime in on this sooner.
Having just gone through a bout with what I think was Bacterial hemmorrhagic septicimia I thought I'd direct you here:
http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in ... eatment%22
and to a relatively recent thread here:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0
and to my experience with it including a pic of my dead clown here:
.............edit................posted the same link twice
here is the right one:http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2327&start=0
difficult to say if BHS is what was in your tank, but if the consensus from your other investigating leads to that, this information would have been helpful if I'd gotten it to you sooner. I do apologize.
It seemed you were getting so much advice that I didn't want to muddy the waters further...I hope things are stabilizing for you and your fish. My 55 is stable at the moment, and I am still looking to re-house the clowns. All of the rest survived and I did not treat with oxytetracycline. Most likely the largest clown succumbed because for one reason or another he was succeptible. In my case the only signs I really had were the increased redness in the caudal and rapid respiration. I did not notice any loss of appetite or change in behavior and once the redness and respiration was noticed it was likely too late for him unless I had the appropriate medication on hand and knew definitively to use it.
The reality is that I most likely would NOT have used it because I would not have considered it could have been BHS in the first place, in spite of being aware of the signs of the disease. It can take out a fish tank so quickly that unless you jump right to that conclusion it will often be too late. I should have known better...
First line of defense for me is almost always water changes. Apparently the combination of a too large water change (here I have to be sure to do less than 50% or I do get tank problems--don't know why...wish I was a chemist sometimes) and removing too much plant growth destabilized the tank and led to a mini cycle which caused all the fish to suffer and was the last straw for the large clown.
Valuable learning experience, but sheesh! Losing fish is extremely stressful, especially when you don't know what it was or how to treat it. I do feel for your recent debacle and hope all is better now.
regarding medicated food:
I have never been able to get any of my fish to eat it, even if I withold food for 3 days and feed nothing else. In fact, I have a rather large supply of it from several years ago (which I will dispose of).
Garlic did work to get my royal to start eating again. . .
Last edited by shari2 on Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike.Skinny may mean a lot of things, usually tapeworm(s),
Skinny--if you are talking about Chronic Wasting Syndrome in botia species--does not mean tapeworms. It is thought to be a combination of both parasites and infection. The most frequently successful treatment for it is levamisole along with a good gram positive and negative antibiotic. Look into the archives on it, you will find a wealth of helpful information on what is likely a complex series of issues. None of the information I have perused (which is significant) seems to have isolated the cause to a single issue such as tapeworms. If you are talking about skinny fish in general, that also cannot be simply identified as 'usually' tapeworms. I know you have dealt with such an issue yourself, but don't allow that to color your conclusions for others quite so quickly.
In future I would suggest that you not offer advice without linking to where you have found the information from which you have drawn your conclusions. Personal experience tends to lead us to recognizing signs of what we have ourselves seen in our fish and can sometimes lead us astray in diagnosing others' issues or interpreting their explanations of what they are trying to describe.
Diagnosing from descriptions, or even pictures, over the internet can be problematic. People in a panic with sick fish will often overlook what could be vital information which complicates the issue further. Asking a whole bunch of questions is generally the best way to go in the early stages and can help those panic stricken folks to focus. It will also help US to be sure we have all the necessary information to make intelligent and informed suggestions--which is the best we can hope to do. Ultimately, the health and well being of the fish and tank in question is in the hands of their caretakers. Any advice we offer will have to be evaluated in light of what they actually see in their own tanks.
There is usually room for error when issues are less than clear in a post (as they usually are). Anything internal can be misdiagnosed quite easily. Things such as ick, most external parasites, overstocking, or water quality issues are far more concrete and easy to point out.
This is meant most kindly, in the interest of those who will benefit from your advice in the future, and I am sure there will be many because you have a sincere interest in your fish and sharing your experience with others.
Shari,shari2 wrote:Mike.Skinny may mean a lot of things, usually tapeworm(s),
Skinny--if you are talking about Chronic Wasting Syndrome in botia species--does not mean tapeworms.
I don't think it is very helpful to mousey for us to get into a serious discussion of skinny here, it will simply damage the thread.
Please do note the word "USUALLY" in my post. If you would like to discuss this further, why don't we have another thread? It is quite clear that we have different views on the subject, but this is just not the right place.
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