water change leads to lack of appetite and quick breathing

[shari2]

That's a preety tank. Loaches doing their 'loachy dance' thing in the corner, I see.

Fwiw, I think the loaches would greatly appreciate a couple more hiding spots. Maybe another piece of bogwood with some java fern on it would be nice. They like shady/subdued lighting areas. They also seem to like your silver dollar...

Glad things are going well, and good fortune on your bar exam! I'll send Eli your greetings.

[Martin Thoene]

Haha! Great minds think alike. I was going to post exactly the same thing, but got nosey and checked out the excellent photogallery on the video host site. Nice work.

Yes....It's a nice tank, but the Clowns absolutely do need some more cover. They sure look happy though and have great color. Bogwood with Java fern is an excellent idea, but I fear the Silver Dollars would make short work of live plants.

They're beautiful fish, but unfortunately a munch-bunch when it comes to expensive decorative plants.

Looks like you have some serious filtration on the tank too, which is fantastic.

Good luck and let's hope this was all just a hiccup. I had a disaster on my 6 foot tank the other week and lost 3 beautiful Clowns. Different cause, but funnily enough my water parameters were very similar to what you got.

Martin.

[helen nightingale]

i hope your fish are recovering well.

you said early on in this post that you tend to overdose on the dechlorinator. i would suggest that you stick to the dose it says on the bottle at the moment. dechlorinator at too high doses can be an irritant so will irritate your fishes gills and so not help them to breathe any better.

best wishes

[angelfish83]

I have some qualms with your tank:

1 You don't have nearly enough hiding spots

2 you should never have the water level dropped. It should always be all the way to the top with about 2" space between water and your lid. Oxygen gets in through surface movement, not 'bubbles'. They only serve to blow off surface grime.

3 Tank is too small for clowns

4 Not enough Current

5 Not enough surface agitation

6 From the behaviour of all the fish put together I would surmise there is a very very trace amount of nitrite lingering in there for some reason.



And NEVER overdose dechlorinators, especially the cheapies. Even with the more expensive stuff, constant overdosing WILL lead to things like a lack of appetite.

There's nasty nasty stuff in water conditioners, like sodium compounds and polyvinyl compounds.

[angelfish83]

Good luck and let's hope this was all just a hiccup. I had a disaster on my 6 foot tank the other week and lost 3 beautiful Clowns. Different cause, but funnily enough my water parameters were very similar to what you got.

Martin.

Wasn't that a power outage though?

[USFMarine]

I have some qualms with your tank:

1 You don't have nearly enough hiding spots

any suggestions? or do I just buy another fake plastic log at petsmart?

2 you should never have the water level dropped. It should always be all the way to the top with about 2" space between water and your lid. Oxygen gets in through surface movement, not 'bubbles'. They only serve to blow off surface grime.

I take issue with this statement, because the only reason any of my loaches are alive is because I dropped my water level so the filter output could agitate the surface. All of my fish were at the surface, upside-down, dying until I dropped the water level; within 15 minutes of removing some water all of the fish were wen't back down to their normal spots, and from that point on started to recover. For me, dropping the water level saved them, and it will remain there heavily agitating the surface until I get my nitrite/nitrate under control... did you read all of the posts above...? I was recomended to drop the water level down...

3 Tank is too small for clowns

You're the first to say this, at their current size and number, it seems adequate. However, you can make a donation if you want towards the next tank fund. The video probably makes the clowns look bigger than they actually are.. they range in size from 2.5-4.5 inches.. they still look quite small to me.

4 Not enough Current

you can't tell by the brief videos, but there is quite a bit of current in there. I see the loaches swimming against it all the time... they like it.. i'm sure it isn't what they experience in the wild.. but it's the best I can do right now unless you have a cheap suggestion for increasing current.

5 Not enough surface agitation

Right now there are so many water dropplets flying all over the place that my floor was wet this morning, I hope my roommates don't slip and fall and come after me!

Do they sell wave machines for fish tanks?

6 From the behaviour of all the fish put together I would surmise there is a very very trace amount of nitrite lingering in there for some reason.

Obviously by my posted test results indicating there is still nitrite in the tank, I can surmise there is nitrites in the tank.

And NEVER overdose dechlorinators, especially the cheapies. Even with the more expensive stuff, constant overdosing WILL lead to things like a lack of appetite.

never again.

Thanks for the analysis of the tank, if you have any suggestions to help me increase agitation/current/hiding spots, that would be even more helpful. If I need to buy certain items, advice on the cheapest place would be helpful too. I'm guessing that you're going to tell me to buy a power head to try and re-create the stream ambience. Do you know of a brand that's a good bang for the poor-college-student buck.

[USFMarine]

Yes....It's a nice tank, but the Clowns absolutely do need some more cover. They sure look happy though and have great color. Bogwood with Java fern is an excellent idea, but I fear the Silver Dollars would make short work of live plants.

Where can I acquire this "bogwood?" And do java ferns normally grow out of it or something... I have a feeling that introducing live plants is an additional variable I probably don't have time to fool with.. (buying new lights to grow them, etc etc).

Looks like you have some serious filtration on the tank too, which is fantastic.

Do you think that instead of having the Fluval output being distributed like I have it, I should just have the tube outputting on the opposite side of the tank (no dotted sprinkle line). I would think this would make the tank flow from right to left, thus giving it a more river-like feel...? I don't know if this would decrease the amount of oxygen in the water though...

Good luck and let's hope this was all just a hiccup. I had a disaster on my 6 foot tank the other week and lost 3 beautiful Clowns. Different cause, but funnily enough my water parameters were very similar to what you got.
Martin.

What happened to you? My "hiccup" was gross negligence in maintaining my tank.. hopefully that will never happen again.

Do you guys buy battery backups for your filters?

[angelfish83]

you absolutely should get a backup battery. I havent yet but plan to. Its a good investment.

I realize I may have come off jerkish- whish I absolutely didn't mean to.

In My experience, with a spray bar, you'll get WAAAAY more surface agitation if you put it BELOW the surface and aim up at a 10 to 15 degree angle at the surface. And ya if you can do the one end to the other current thing.

The main thing that affects dissolved oxygen is surface agitation.

I dont understand why you were told otherwise...

The amount of surface agitation I can get with even my 117GPG powerhead if I aim it just right is rediculous. A good 1MPS (meter per second)

~~
Do you think that instead of having the Fluval output being distributed like I have it, I should just have the tube outputting on the opposite side of the tank

YES!

But make sure its right dead in the middle of the side (make sense... doesnt make sense to me as I read it...) I mean right in the center of the panel of glass on the far end of the tank, and aim it so it fires directly along the surface. Out of a 403 you SHOULD have enough current to blast a particle of whatever... flake, etc at well over 1.5 meters/second, which is bitchin good surface agitation.

An airpump is nice too, ideally run through the output from your canister filter. If you don't have a built in valve, very careful work with a sharp cutting tool can make you one.

The main reason you want an airpump is as a protein skimmer to keep the surface very clear to promote gas exchance



As per hiding spots, plastic logs are a no no. Real logs are ok, but clowns really like slate, the grey/green/black metamorphic rock.

Its naturally flat, so its not hard to make nice networks of caves in stacks with it. Just aim for slightly larger than the loaches (obviously as they grow you must reorganize). they feel comfortable if they have only a small amount of clearance to hide.

[USFMarine]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that having gentle surface agitation from below (your idea of having just the tube output at water level) promotes more oxygen exchange than my currently violently noisey spray bar?

Do you have any ideas how to get my output hose nicely affixed to the position you described? It isn't very malleable... maybe there is some kind of "spout" that could be attached to the hose... ok, I think i'm on to something now!

does everyone agree that "from-below agitation" is superior to lets say my current spray bar? Just wondering if there is consensus overall...

[adampetherick]

Yes....It's a nice tank, but the Clowns absolutely do need some more cover. They sure look happy though and have great color. Bogwood with Java fern is an excellent idea, but I fear the Silver Dollars would make short work of live plants.

Where can I acquire this "bogwood?" And do java ferns normally grow out of it or something... I have a feeling that introducing live plants is an additional variable I probably don't have time to fool with.. (buying new lights to grow them, etc etc).

You should be able to get it from your local fish store, Java fern is a relativly low light plant, looking at your vid's yiou should be fine with what you've got. Unlike other plants java fern's roots grow into the gaps in wood rather than under gravle

Looks like you have some serious filtration on the tank too, which is fantastic.

Do you think that instead of having the Fluval output being distributed like I have it, I should just have the tube outputting on the opposite side of the tank (no dotted sprinkle line). I would think this would make the tank flow from right to left, thus giving it a more river-like feel...? I don't know if this would decrease the amount of oxygen in the water though...

Having the water flowing left to right would not lower oxygen levels but would be a good way to make a river type flow which is what clowns have in the wild
[/b]

[adampetherick]

As for battery backup, the only thing I've seen is a PC UPS system, which would only provide a few minutes extra at the cost of lots of £ or $, most I've seen provide 5-6mins of backup life which there isn't really any point to IMO.

Spray bars are designed to be mounted above the surface and you will get more surface aggitation that way.

You don't need a protein skimmer for a freshwater tank, they are purely for Marine tank setups.

Plastic logs are fine for clowns, try and aim for natural surroundings for them. Here's some examples

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/man ... pesAA.html
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/biotope/biotope3.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_2/ ... pes_p1.htm

[USFMarine]

Would this be good if I could have the output going along the surface?

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ct ... zzle104404

Will the above fit the tube for my 403, I can only assume it's the same tube size as the the 404.



Or should I pick up something off of this page too for some more firepower?

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ct ... powerheads

[adampetherick]

Adding powerheads will do no harm to make a more realistic river flow


I'm guessing you have a 403 now? Running that connected to a spray bar and 1-2 powerheads providing flow will be fine

[USFMarine]

After doing another 10 gallon water change, and using quite a bit of "prime" my tank is as follows:

Nitrate = 200
Nitrite = 0 (yeahhh!)
Hardness = 230
Alkalinity = 80
PH = 7.2


Seriously, considering how many water changes and moreover using lots of the prime, I can't believe my nitrates are still at 200. Oh well, looks like daily water changes are in order until the nitrates go back down..

[adampetherick]

Ideally nitrates need to be <50 and the hardness should be lower too