Two foot river tank

[Martin Thoene]

I have to disagree with you Mike. I've kept G. ocellatus and G. ctenocephalus, plus G. scitulus for over 3 years in different tanks, and Jim's had them longer. I think he would agree that ocellatus are somewhat more mild-mannered than ctenocephalus.

G. ocellatus will sit around in small groups



You'll never see ctenos doing that. They're basically nuts as far as I'm concerned. Even in my 65 they're at it constantly.
I've had a bunch of ocellatus (pictured) together in a 30H with a big shoal of kyathit danios and they lived totally amicably with one another. I only once saw a fight that lasted any duration.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2682

No damage resulted at all. A 250 gph powerhead on a River-Tank manifold is going to provide masses of water movement, but not much unidirectional current, due to the tank length. Unidirectional current is the icing on the cake of my design in a long tank, but it does still give excellent circulation due to the max separation of pump and intake in a short tank. No stream is totally uni-directional. There's flow reversals and turbulances going on all over the place.

Tammy, I would go with what you've got, what you can afford and above all the deciding factor on what you keep will come down to personal preference and what your local shop gets in.

Once the baby is born and things maybe get more settled, plus hopefully you have the finances, you could upsize to a 36" or whatever. If you've got to buy the tube and fittings, get enough for a 36" or 48" even, plus two in-line joining adaptors. Glue the lengthways tubes in one end manifold, but leave the other end as a push fit. Then, when the time comes for an upgrade you can easily slip in extra length to the manifold.

Think ahead I can almost guarantee that once you keep these type of fish you're going to be hooked.

Martin.

[Jim Powers]

I would agree with Martin concerning the gastro behavior. I am, at present, having a power struggle between my two largest and oldest G. ocellatus. They are both 4 years old and 2" long. One was the dominant one until the last couple of weeks. Now the other one dominantes despite being smaller. Even with that power shift, they often rest next to one another in total peace after they have eaten in the morning. I have seen smaller ctenos and scitulus push around the larger ocellatus. That continued until the ocellatus reached 2" and the ctenos were 1.5".
Then things changed. The ocellatus, however, do not seem as persistant in their shoving as ctenos and scitulus.
Stellatus, on the other hand, seem to be a bit more shy and mellow and doesn't engage in the fights as much. I have never had more than one together so I don't know how they do with others of their own kind in that regard.

[mikev]

You'll never see ctenos doing that. They're basically nuts as far as I'm concerned. Even in my 65 they're at it constantly.

But I do see them doing this all the time! (Ok, I'll try to catch them sitting next to each other like in your picture, right this moment they spread out).

TBH, every time you or Jim write about Gastro fighting, I am a little puzzled, because it is not what is happening here. Very little and very mild, comparing to Beaufortias. Either it is about "your mileage may vary", or possibly mine are all sub-adult, they (a mix of G.cteno.. and G.stellatus) are all on the smaller size.

Stellatus, on the other hand, seem to be a bit more shy and mellow and doesn't engage in the fights as much. I have never had more than one together so I don't know how they do with others of their own kind in that regard.

No fighting whatsoever noticed. Not even the mild stuff I see from ctenos.

[mikev]

OK, I cannot produce a photo with three together instantly, but two is no problem:



One add. reason I suspect mine may be all young/growing is that some of them are changing colors, you can see the dark rim on the fins of the fish in front, it was not there originally.

[Martin Thoene]

Like I said Mike, mine are over 3 years old. The real crazy stuff didn't happen at this rate until maybe a year ago.

My ctenocephalus are totally dominant. One male in particular just scares most other fish before he even gets close. He's the boss over all the other species.......until he comes up against the Beaufortia.

Now Beaufortia will run from Beaufortia, but if an urban-terrorist Gastromyzon comes at them it's like there's a force-field around them. Kind of like Obe-Wan Kenobe, the Beaufortia does something and suddenly the nut-job Gastro backs way down and runs away. It's hilarious to watch. The Beaufortia sometimes doesn't even move.

It seems they have absolutely no conception of backing down unless it's their own kind.

Martin.

[mikev]

Like I said Mike, mine are over 3 years old. The real crazy stuff didn't happen at this rate until maybe a year ago.

Aha. Thanks, this explains it.
(I actually thought mine may not be well....but they do eat and plecorate normally... I guess they will grow up ..into madness.. yet.)

It seems they have absolutely no conception of backing down unless it's their own kind.

Nope. This is why I particularly like them (:oops:). On my end, Beaufortias and Gastros are in different tanks, so not much of an idea of now they would mix, but between Beaufortias and Sewellias it is one way: Beaufortias win every time. They get the best stones and Sewellias eat only after Beaufortias are done.

PS. The *only* crazy stuff from the Gastros are the occassional attempts to top schisturas (there are 3 S. Poculi in their tank).

[mikev]

Just for the fun of it: this is why I like Beaufortia's



The fish on the left is hiding.
The fish on the right is lying in wait (this is the Alpha Beaufortia). If another hillstream shows up in front of it, it will jump on it.

But here is one thing Beaufortia's would not do:



Not only it sits (bounces) on a leaf, it also eats the dead plant tissue.

So, be warned: it is as Martin said. Before long, you'll have to have several tanks, no two hillstreams are exactly alike.

[mikev]

And one last one:



I'm hoping to catch the moment when a gastro actually tops a schistura.
Pushed the button too fast this time, he is only preparing...

(I was very lucky with the Schistura's: not only they are not territorial, they also don't fight back, otherwise there would be lots of dead Gastros....)

[TammyLiz]

I've enjoyed reading this comparison of different hillstream personalities!

And I love your picture of the ocellatus sitting around together Martin. They are so cute.

Tammy, I would go with what you've got, what you can afford and above all the deciding factor on what you keep will come down to personal preference and what your local shop gets in.

I realize we have a discrepancy between opinions here, but I get the feeling that at least Martin and possibly Jim believes it would be OK to put G. ocellatus in this tank. If thats what you're saying here, what kind of numbers are you thinking? I can only go off of your advice since I have no way of making an educated guess myself without just starting with trial and error. As far as what the shop gets in, my local shop has been very dissappointing lately so I plan on making an order from Frank. He has these listed on his site as being on order right now so I'm hoping that goes through and I can get some when they come out of quarantine.

He also has a few interesting species of danios. One that caught my eye which I know is available in other areas but I've never seen around here is the glowlight danio. Maxing out at an inch, they are a lot smaller than the kyathits Martin mentioned. Would the gastros cause them grief?

Thanks for taking the time to help me figure this out. I really do appreciate it.

[adampetherick]

damn you river people, really want to set one up but the girlfriend says no more tanks and only got 2 so far!

[mikev]

damn you river people, really want to set one up but the girlfriend says no more tanks and only got 2 so far!

Start preparing the girlfriend. One river tank is just not enough. Tell her "five to start with" and settle for three, this will keep you happy for a few months.

[adampetherick]

well she's agreed to adding the 10' to the collection when we buy a place.
was one of my stipulations of putting the £40k towards it, don't want to pay that much for permission for each tank!

[Martin Thoene]

I would say 6 G.ocellatus.



I've kept Danio choprae they're extremely pretty fish......



......BUT.....they are evil little snappy things with one another. All mine bar the lead male would have chunks out of their fins.

Another alternative is Danio roseus.....nice and peaceful.......

Males have more red.

Danio kyathit looks like this.....

This one's a Male.

All these pictures are of my fish, so I can speak with experience. The last two species live near the base of waterfalls in the wild and prefer cooler conditions. So current is not a problem for them. I made the mistake of transfering the kyathit to my Clown tank which is near 83F. Basically, they burned out. It speeded up their metabolism so they aged very quickly. They like cool conditions, and are peaceful.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

Martin.

[mikev]

well she's agreed to adding the 10' to the collection when we buy a place.

Here is a possible problem.

I started with loaches dreaming about a nice huge tank for the clowns...then I learned that there are many smaller loaches, all interesting in their own ways. I suspect the same happened with others...

Now, I'm not giving up on clowns or other Botias here, and will have one more Botia species before the end of the year, but 10' does not any longer feel like the dream... A stack of 3' does.

But this is just me...

[shari2]

Tammy, the river tank I aquired is only a 20long. One Rio 1100 powerhead blowing right to left with an air hose over a pile of rocks straight at the sponge (rather large) on the left.

The area directly behind the powerhead is relatively calm. Currently there is a bunch of cabomba growing into the powerhead. Not kidding. The stuff just sent roots down into any crack and is holding on for dear life. And I stuck a small ball of javamoss on top of it that isn't getting blown around at all.

The white clouds (5 of em) hang out in the plants at night. Sort of sleeping on top of them.

I have 3 occellatus, 1 cteno (a little bully), and 2 others I'm not sure what...I thought they were both the same when I got them at the store, but now I'm not so sure...The occellatus back down to the cteno, and the other two don't. But he keeps trying anyway.

There are also 2 bristlenose in there. Usually I am a chronic understocker and to my mind this tank is way overpopulated. However, when I look at the interaction and activity level, it seems to be ok. I'm not expecting any of these fish to breed so don't have much worry that I'll have to be moving fish around any time soon.

When I got the tank originally there was a breeding pair of cheni's in there, and two other kinds of hillstream. Had to have been over a dozen little ones in there! Was VERY bummed when I lost them.

In any case, yes a 20 will make a rivertank. Not as cool or big as a 65

but still lots of fun.