Botia Angelicus vs. Botia Almorae

[mikev]

CanuckFish,

to avoid the situations like the one you got yourself into, I suggest doing your research more carefully and always provide links to the information you supply.

I carefully searched all your threads on LOL and could not find anyone saying that B. Rostrata maxes out at 6-7cm. Ditto for keeping any Botia species in a 10g.

I do have a guess about where this is coming from.

You were told that Rostrata's are typically smaller than Yoyo's. This is correct. I think this part did come from LOL.
Then you found somewhere that Yoyo's max out at 3". This is incorrect, but this is what a number of sites state. (Other sites state that Yoyo's max out at 6". The correct answer seems to be 8" or more.).
Putting these two together you somehow derived that Rostrata must max out at 2.5". Junk in, junk out.
Concluding from here that a 2.5" would be happy in a 10g tank was wrong on two counts: firstly, it is not a 2.5" fish, but secondly, even if it were, a 2.5" botia should not be kept in a 10g.

By not explaining where your information comes from and (even worse) attributing it to LOL, you got people justifiably upset. Next time, explain your sources and thinking, you will be much better off even if you are proven totally wrong.

hth

[CanuckFish]

Ouch and double ouch!!!

Okay, I will attempt to keep myself calm and word this reply diplomatically. Forgive the length, but I wish to provide some context...

I have to admit I love loaches! I started in the hobby (which was only in the beginning of September this year) with my 10 gallon tank stocked with 3 male guppies and a yo-yo loach. Yes, I'm sure you are all cringing about several things right now. 1. Having a yo-yo loach in such a small tank, 2. having the yo-yo loach by himself, and maybe 3. cycling the tank with the yo-yo (I'm not sure if this is a transgression or not). What do I say in defense of all this? I made a mistake! I read the scanty materials about fishkeeping that I got with my starter kit, and asked a number of questions at various fish stores. At one store I saw a juvenile yo-yo loach in a display tank and fell in love. I asked the worker I could get one of those fish with some guppies to start with and she replied yes. She seemed knowledgeable, and I trusted her advice. I was new and didn't know any better.

Shortly after starting things up, I did an internet search and found FishGeeks and through that site found yours as well. I must state that both websites have been invaluable resources. I have learned so much in the last month and a half.

OK, now on to the hard matters. I was doing some research on your site, looking at different Botia species information. I really love Botia Kubotai and really wanted to see if they'd work in my 10g tank, but after researching the species on your site, realized that it wasn't right as they grow too big (5 inches I believe). On your site I went to "Botia Species" and through there looked up Botia Rostrata and saw an article by Bogdan J. Janiczak dated Feb. 7th, 2003. About halfway through the main paragraph I came across "...while a one year old specimen (photo 4), in majority of cases, usually already posses adult fish caudal fin markings and is within the range of 6-7cm TL." What I took from that was that the total length of an adult Botia Rostrata is 6-7cm. Upon reading that article again now, I notice that further down in the paragraph Mr. Janiczak went on to say "Adult fish (as the female shown in one of the attached photos) can reach the total length slightly exceeding 10cm".

I don't know why that didn't register in my mind when I read it the first time. I finished reading that article then and came away with the impression that Botia Rostrata had a maximum adult size of 6-7cm. Erroneous I admit, and that error went on to complicate things more because then I read an e-mail that Mike Ophir wrote under "Botia Species - Rostrata". The e-mail (dated October 23, 1999) finishes with "In my opinion, this highly recommended fish is a much better species to keep in a 5 gallon tank, as opposed to a corydoras catfish."

Well, when I saw that I figured that was the answer! Here we have a botia that only grows to 6-7cm and can work in a 5 gallon; how much better if I have a 10!

So since then I have been eagerly anticipating the prospect of getting 3 Rostrata's in my tank.

In regards to my post "Botia Angelicus vs. Botia Almorae" (oops sp!), it picks up at the point where I wish to replace my lost yo-yo loach with a Kubotai. In the responses I received from several of your members it was pointed out that a) yo-yo's and kubotai shouldn't be alone, b) this was an important issue, and c) having only two loaches can be a problem due to the potential for fighting.

I realized that I needed to get back to TammyLiz, as I hadn't mentioned the size of my tank.

At the same time, I was commenting to people at FishGeeks of finding a great species of Botia that only grows to 6-7cm that I can fit in my 10g (thinking about Mike Ophir's comment of them working in a 5g).

Okay, so I realize that I made a big mistake in misreading Bogdan's species description of Botia Rostrata. And for that mistake I sincerely apologize as I have been spreading erroneous information at FishGeeks, and in the process have put you and your site in an uncomfortable position. I can understand then why you would respond so heatedly.

Following this posting, I intend to post a message at FishGeeks to clarify my error, and to apologize if my misunderstanding resulted in any upset.

Now I do have to take exception to some things...

First of all I would appreciate it that if NancyD has a bone to pick with something I've said that she would have the courtesy to discuss it with me directly, and not be surreptitious about things. I don't like being portrayed in a light as though I'm attempting to deceive and manipulate.

On that note I must take exception also to several things you have said Martin. "Any amount of warping of the truth...Telling informed people here false information...blatant disregard for good advice you seem to have...when kind people who know the requirements of these fish through long experience take time out of their day to answer your questions, you should at least have the decency to take that advice on board...what are you going to do, move around the internet until you can find some numbskull who's going to tell you what you want to hear...you might want to remove that Raymond Chandler quote from your signature until you're going to live by it".

Coming from someone who is new to the hobby, and who has sincere intentions, these comments were cutting and deeply hurtful. Calling my veracity and attitude into question is definitely an overreaction, and just simply wrong.

What's more you did the same thing as NancyD, and afforded me no benefit of the doubt. It seems the hammer (or should I say axe?) of justice has fallen.

You might like to know that I will not be putting any Rostrata in my tank as they are in fact too big. I only wish I didn't have to learn about my mistake in such a humiliating manner.

If you wish to revoke my membership in your association of academics then feel free. You certainly haven't made me feel very welcome.

I would like to thank a few people like Mikev and Shari2 however. They were kind enough to help me when I was struggling with the cammalanus roundworm problem in my tank. At least they provided a warm reception.

CanuckFish

[helen nightingale]

Sorry you havent been made to feel very welcome here. because most of the people who post here are so passionate about their loaches, nobody wants things dome wrong, or false information put out. as you have found yourself, it can be so hard to find good information when starting out. sadly, some people just will not take in something isnt right when it is explained very gently so some things HAVE to be explained in a hard manner. some people still dont get that something is wrong.

You will still be welcome here, just as long as you realise your mistake and try and do something about it. it sounds like you are doing this. so stay around, ask questions, increase your knowledge and increase your injoyment of loaches too. have you looked through the species descriptions forum? the information there is first class

best wishes for getting everything sorted

[shari2]

Hey there CanuckFish,

Thank you for the clarification and diplomacy. If you were anywhere near here I could give you a 30g set up that would house some striatas and a few other things.

something you may need to come to grips with now is that when you start with a 10g (which I and many many others also did) it is almost inevitable that shortly down the line you look for a bigger tank. the 10 becomes your quarantine tank and you spend alot more time planning and setting up your next bigger tank. I agree that it is actually harder to keep a small tank stable than a larger one. You may find the same--since I will bet that sooner rather than later you will be looking for one...

And something else to keep in mind...LOL is a small group of people who have taken an interest in a gang of fishes slightly off the beaten path. We are just a bunch of fishkeepers (like you) who happen to have spent time (some more than others) doing alot of learning about these fish. There is a somewhat 'academic' tone here, because well...we keep on learning. No one here knows it all, or ever will. Though it may sometimes sound like we think we do--I think it's fair to say that we all know we don't. . .

No one is 'revoking' your membership. In fact, I am very glad that you are adult enough to come back here and take the time to explain and express yourself. Thank you for doing so.

How close are you to NJ? Got lots of tanks sitting around here...and filters...and lights...and heaters...and a tank full of plants that have to go...

[Martin Thoene]

OK CanuckFish.....you passed the test Anybody who comes back with such a sensible and well-worded response to yesterday's lambasting deserves to be listened to.

I hope you realize WHY I posted that message. It wasn't aimed so much at you personally, but rather as a defense against what appeared to be erronous statements. I didn't want people on another forum thinking that information is given out here that's so blatantly innacurate.

I could not understand why you claimed the facts that you did, now I understand. The fact that you've done research and reading on the mass of information available on this site is testament to the fact you're taking this hobby seriously and I applaud you on that. We can all misinterpret stuff we read and yes, I'm as guilty as anyone on not reading all the way down things and missing some highly pertinent gem of information. Human nature.

Another factor of human nature is that the knowledge and experience increase with time. Mike Ophir would be the first to agree I'm sure that he knows different things now to what he knew in 1999 and would probably have a different opinion of suitable tank size now. Mike has been on Loaches Online longer than anybody else. He was what? I think about 14 or so when he started and has since learned and studied to the point where he has had several loach articles published in magazines. He knows his stuff.

One of the biggest problems for our niche of the hobby has been the lack of a definitive book on the subject. To that end a bunch of us (Mike included) wrote that book back in 2003. It is due to be published next fall.

Knowledge increases and right now parts of that book's text are already innacurate. We want to do updates before publication.
A huge amount of information here on LOL is highly dated and superceded by better knowledge and understanding. Right now we are working on updating the species index to eradicate all the innacuracies and bring the nomenclature up to the current standing. Because we want this site to be the one-stop shop for loach information, continuous updating is really necessary and we're attempting to work that into the format of the revised site.

So what am I saying? What I'm saying is that things don't remain the same. It's a great pity that you didn't come on the forum and ask the pertinent questions because you would have received good information and opinion. It would have avoided this misunderstanding.
The fact is that none of us knows it all. I always tell people that you shouldn't believe a lot of stuff on the internet until you see the same info coming from many people and it's based on their own experience. Look for a consensus of acceptance of a given piece of info.

If you look at this forum, in many, many threads you'll see people having different experiences in keeping the same species. we use the term"Your mileage may vary".....the car manufacturer's cop-out disclaimer....because it's true. Things can be different in my tank, your tank, another's tank. Water chemistry, decor, all sorts of facts can affect how a fish behaves. The fact is that loaches are a lot more intelligent than many other fish species and therefore more likely (just like humans) to have differing behaviour patterns in different situations.

As regards feeling welcome, please be assured that you are. If you look at the "Hi everybody" thread started by Petz, you'll see I'm most welcoming normally. I didn't feel welcoming to the guy who posted on Fishgeeks, but the sensible guy to whom I reply now, I most certainly do.
I'm a bit mortified if we come across as being academic in certain ways. I think it is based on a great passion for these fish that many of us possess. I for one most certainly don't want to appear academic. I want to be perceived as knowledgeable, but I try to put that knowledge across in an accessible way, a fun way. One thing that would appear to set lovers of loaches apart from other fish keepers is a wicked sense of humour and an ability to project that in how they write. I've been on LOL since September 1998 and half the reason I stay here is because of the people. Like loaches themselves, loach-keepers seem to be sociable and like to shoal. Loaches can be "Clowns" and so can many of the people who frequent here. If you want to learn about loaches, if you want to learn through others success and disasters, this is the place to be. If you want to bust a gut laughing on some days, this is also the place to be.

I hope you feel more welcome now, because you are. Life is full of misunderstandings. It's how you go on from the misunderstanding that makes it a blunder or a success......

......and you need a bigger tank

Martin.

[NancyD]

Here's what I just posted to CanuckFish @ fishgeeks:
CanuckFish. I DID try to discuss this with you here when I said a 10g is too small for a 4inch fish (a very conservative estimate). Your response was to cite loaches.com as RECOMMENDING a 5 gal (for a fish that CAN grow to 8 inches). As I am a regular at that site I doubted that but checked the species profile there to make certain. To improperly house animals is 1 thing, but I also felt people at LOL should know that you were using them to justify your stated intentions.

Whew! You know, all I suggested was waiting until you got a bigger tank.

As you know from your yoyo, loaches are wonderful fish. With good care & luck, kept in a big enough tank with others of their same kind, they can live for up to 10 years or more. That should be the goal. Otherwise this hobby can turn into a series of disasters as you've already seen.

Nancy

I admit I was pi$$ed, Thou shalt not take the LOL in vain!
Nancy