Exactly what type of internal parasites are clowns prone to?

[kimmers318]

I know from the information I have received here that clowns are prone to having internal parasites due to being wild caught. What parasites exactly are we talking about? Some of you may remember that I had posted in the past that I can't keep clowns alive as much as we want to...are ready for the set up and all that. They have all succumbed to the dreaded skinny disease except one of the last 3 hubby came home with against my wishes. As much as I want these tank busters for a future HUGE tank....I couldn't go thru them dying again. I know levamisole is the suggested treatment, but since he brought them home that day, none had been ordered. He did a round of pepso food, prazipro and internal parasite guard from jungle labs. We lost 2 of the 3. The last little guy is doing great, but I don't keep my hopes up because they have a tendency to last just over 2 months and then I lose them usually around the 3-4 month mark. I saw yesterday another product from jungle at Petsmart called anti-parasite medicated fish food for flagellates, trematodes and cestodes which includes hexamita, spironucleus, intestinal worms, tapeworms and nematodes, e.g. camallanus. It contains metronidazole 1.0%, praziquantel 0.5% and levamisole 0.4%. I was real surprised to see levamisole as an ingredient since this is about the only place that I hear of it frequently. When I called a vet when I was about ready to lose the last of batch #2 months ago and asked to speak to him about getting ahold of some levamisole (I had just heard about it here, couldn't find it and gave a vet a try that specializes in fish)...his answer was that levamisole was a pretty drastic treatment and that he would probably recommend something else after seeing the fish if I wanted to make an appointment. Now, I don't know if this is a new product from jungle or if I had just never seen it before, has anyone here seen it, used it, what are your thoughts. Plus, like I asked at the beginning, what type of parasites are we talking about.....none of the clowns I lost ever appeared to have any parasites. I have heard of other species that when the fish died they saw the worms leaving the body....ewww! but it made me think.....I never saw anything like that myself, none of my other fish have ever been infected, and I would think that if they had a parasite, it would likely leave a dead host and look for a live one. I know I am rambling on here, but some day, I will want to try again, probably sooner rather than later if this little guy does make it he will certainly need some friends other than the cories and kuhli's. I guess, I just want/need more information for myself, not because I don't believe you guys, I just need to understand it more. I know one thing for sure....I will definitely go with larger ones, as much as I want to start with little itty bitty babies.....slightly older, (and more costly of course) may be a better choice, hopefully by then they will have gotten to that point without parasites! And of course I am sure you will hear from me again on ordering and dosing levamisole since nothing else has worked.

[mikev]

@jungle parasite food: known and tried. Was ineffective against nematodes, despite the presence of levamisole.

Against the tapeworms (which are the more common cause of the skinny disease than nematodes), UltraCarePX seems to be more effective. (search the forum for it, I posted my stats before).

Levamisole in the tank, however, remains the best med for the internal parasites, and there is usually no good reason to use something else. If you suspect skinny disease, this is what you should get.

However, what you are describing somehow does not feel like a tapeworm (or any indirect worm) skinny.... Tapeworms seem to affect about 1/4-1/3 of loaches, not every one, and they usually take much longer than 2-3 months to kill.
An active nematode infection in the tank is possible; other causes may be a bacterial infection or a water problem.

[shari2]

kimmers, the parasites found in wild caught fish can be all kinds of things. Some are directly passed from fish to fish, others require a vector (snail or bird or some intermediate host). With many you will never see a 'worm' at all. Microscopic exams of stool, or the innards of a dead specimen are the best way to find out exactly what is in the fish.

In the past I've used a discontinued product from Aquatronics called 'discomed' which had levamisole as the primary ingredient along with Piperazine, Mag sulfate and Neomycin Sulfate. I used it in conjunction with another broad spectrum antibiotic and successfully treated fish for skinny disease. It worked. I don't know if the amount in the Jungle med would be enough to be effective, and the other meds in it may not be helpful.

Why your vet would call treating with levamisole 'drastic' I can't comprehend. Maybe he was thinking of another protocol or has access to info I have not yet found? From all I've read, and based on personal experience, it is a drug treatment that is effective (especially on nematodes), well tolerated even at significant overdose levels, does not harm the biofilter, invertebrates or plants and has the added benefit of boosting the immune system. What is 'drastic' about that?

I'm sorry to hear about your two new losses and hope your loner makes it past the 4-6 mo mark. It is very good that you are doing your research now to be ready for possible future need.
.............

Against the tapeworms (which are the more common cause of the skinny disease than nematodes)

Mike, would you please either pm me or post the references where you have found this information regarding tapeworms and skinny? It is not something I've run across thus far and would be helpful for a future article on skinny.
Thanks.

[mikev]

Mike, would you please either pm me or post the references where you have found this information regarding tapeworms and skinny? It is not something I've run across thus far and would be helpful for a future article on skinny.
Thanks.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no formal sources, no one did stats on imported loach parasites. There were studies (papers) on the parasites in the wild which do not seem to be helpful.

What I said is based on my several sources, including my own statistics, some posted previously here (see the UltraCarePX thread for the earliest data), reconfirmations with others who were interested in this, and a repeat on a larger number of fishes done at a store which did not treat skinny but did not mind me doing postmortems of symptomatic botias. This added to my stats enough to create a convincing pattern. One important addition was that what I originally saw with Clowns, Kubotais and Yoyo's also applies to Tigers.

An easy way to determine if a skinny in a particular fish is caused by a tapeworm is to treat it with Prazi (or UltraCarePX as I did) and see if the treatment works. Another easy way is to let the fish die and do an autopsy, tapeworms are easy to find even without a microscope.

hth.

[kimmers318]

Yes, I was kinda surprised that the vet called levamisole drastic also since from all I have read here it is totally safe! I was just processing some curiousity about it all since I seem to have the worst luck with clowns, and next to my dwarf puffers are probably my favorite fish that I want. Unlike some, we are well aware of how large they can get and are more than willing to house them. We have several tanks and they can be stepped up from smaller to larger to their eventual home, allowing us to treat cost effectively, quarantine and provide them with a tank to meet their needs. It is a shame that we have had such bad luck. I even sent an email to drsfostersmith when I was looking on their site and saw clown loaches for sale thru a link there and was curious as to how and what they treat their clowns for pertaining to what I hear about the skinny disease. Here is the response

Dear Kim,

Thank you for your email. Our clown loaches are wild caught. They are
treated with a formalin/
malachite green combination and observed before being shipped to our
customers. Clown loaches are scaleless fish, which means they more readily
absorb substances into their body and are affected by their environment more
so than other fish. Clean stable water chemistry is very important for these
guys. For this reason their care level is listed as moderate on our website.
If internal parasites are suspected, I would recommend Gel Tek Ultra Cure PX
or Metronidazole mixed in with high quality foods such as frozen mysis &
brine shrimps, blood & tubifex worms. Other suggestions would be to keep in
groups, provide subdued lighting and plenty of hiding spots. Don't let the
tank temperature fluctuate, and do numerous small water changes (so
chemistry doesn't change rapidly) instead of infrequent large ones.

So much information....so little success for me!

[mikev]

Just for the amusement: our dog vet referred to levamisole as "obsolete junk".

To decypher the email a bit: "formalin/malachite green combination" is the anti-ich mix. It will have no effect on internal parasites. "Gel Tek Ultra Cure PX" is actually a pretty decent med against tapeworms, but it is useless against nematodes.

Given your history of clown problems, I'd look for reasons other than internal parasites as the cause. (I'd still treat every loach with levamisole to cover that possibility).

[shari2]

From your February post:

Since I'm almost certainly dealing with symthome-less tapeworm infections only,

Did you see visual evidence of worms in the fish that caused you to decide this was the case?

What I said is based on my several sources, including my own statistics, some posted previously here (see the UltraCarePX thread for the earliest data), reconfirmations with others who were interested in this, and a repeat on a larger number of fishes done at a store which did not treat skinny but did not mind me doing postmortems of symptomatic botias.

Were you able to ascertain definitively that there were indeed tapeworms in the botia upon which you did postmortems?

My apologies for not being aware of this research previously. I was not on the forum at that time.
Thanks for whatever info you can provide.

[mikev]

From your February post:

Since I'm almost certainly dealing with symthome-less tapeworm infections only,

Did you see visual evidence of worms in the fish that caused you to decide this was the case?

You don't normally see visual evidence of tapeworms: it is inside and unlike nematodes would not venture out. You get the evidence by (1) autopsy (2) testing poop for eggs (3) looking for dead parasites after the treatment (4) successful treatment with tapeworm-specific med.

My assumption about my situation was based on indirect evidence:
The evidence was indirect: another fish which exhibited nearly identical growth/skinny problems had a tapeworm (autopsy-proven). There was no cross-infection in the tank (eliminates direct nematodes). This is not a proof yet, but (4) clinched it.

What I said is based on my several sources, including my own statistics, some posted previously here (see the UltraCarePX thread for the earliest data), reconfirmations with others who were interested in this, and a repeat on a larger number of fishes done at a store which did not treat skinny but did not mind me doing postmortems of symptomatic botias.

Were you able to ascertain definitively that there were indeed tapeworms in the botia upon which you did postmortems?

Yes, in most. The good thing about tapeworms is that they are large: some sp. can grow up to about 30m (not in a small fish, of course).
Incidentally, be careful with plural: it is usually ONE tapeworm. Quite likely, it may be more than one, but I've never seen it.

Do also keep in mind that the purpose of what I was doing was to create a working picture of the disease for me -- I did not do anywhere enough tests to qualify this as science.

A way to do this would be the following: buy 20 clowns from a place that does not treat (for example, Petland). Kill and autopsy them all. You should expect to see 5, maybe 7 tapeworms.

[shari2]

Thank you.
Sorry for hijacking your thread kimmers.
And thanks for your patience.

[kimmers318]

No problem on the highjacking at all. I will admit, scientifically I am a mental dud....as with mechanically. I regularly just keep going over and over what I have done to try to keep clowns so far, and with the exception of using levamisole have done all that has been recommended. Coupled with the fact that I have not lost any other fish in the tank the first 2 batches had been kept in makes me wonder why if there was a parasite, did my other fish not get it? The first 2 batches of clowns were in a 65 gal tank filtered with a magnum 350 biowheel pro. I seeded this tank from another, stocked VERY slowly and never saw any spikes. I will admit, maybe the first clown purchases may have been in too "new" of a tank, but I did what I could to keep the tank, clean, well filtered and have always offered a varied diet, frozen, dry, and live. The first approach was to lower my ph from 8 to around 7.2/7.4 with RO water. I spent many weeks doing bi-weekly water changes slowly increasing the RO water and decreasing the tap water. Still no luck. And no fish have died in that tank since the last clown loach did. Some have been transferred to other tanks, others have been put in there, but I haven't lost any. The last batch was set up in a 20 gal long, 3 small clowns maybe 1 1/2 inches, 2 cory (albino and bronze) and 4 kuhli loaches. I run 2 filters on that tank, and set it up with a sand bed just for these guys. I only run 2 filters because both are for 15 or 20 gal tanks, so 1 really isn't enough. Again....seeded the tank....cycled it, no spikes in ammonia or nitrites ever. My weekly water changes show readings of usually 10 nitrates. The first of the last batch was very obviously getting skinnier and bonier by the day, even though he ate like a pig. The second did get quite as noticeable, just behind the head mostly until the last few days you could notice the stomach sunken in. The sole survivor is looking great....eating great....playing great, loves the flow from the filter, runs to see me when I come with food etc. Hangs with the cory and kuhlis...doesn't act like a loner. Oh well, I guess I will just keep thinking and wondering until I am mentally ready to take the plunge again and order levamisole....then I will be back for more help! Hopefully, in the meantime hubby won't come home with any as a surprise because I can't go thru it again right now.

[shari2]

The first of the last batch was very obviously getting skinnier and bonier by the day, even though he ate like a pig. The second did get quite as noticeable, just behind the head mostly until the last few days you could notice the stomach sunken in.

that sounds like classic 'skinny disease' symptoms. Glad your other little guy doesn't seem affected but I'd keep an eye on him. At the first sign of him thinning down you should consider treating him for it. There are a variety of ways that have been mentioned as successful by different people on here. Many use levamisole. Some have had success with Maracyn I and II. Others use levamisole and antibiotic in conjunction. Because loaches are often wild caught, they carry stuff. Clowns are more often farm bred lately (I think) but some are wild caught, too.

Don't give up. Sounds like you're doing everything right and just got a couple of clowns that had a sickness that is not easy to treat, and not well known. (Except around here ) Hopefully your remaining clown will thrive. He sounds like he is doing fine right now.

[kimmers318]

A way to do this would be the following: buy 20 clowns from a place that does not treat (for example, Petland). Kill and autopsy them all. You should expect to see 5, maybe 7 tapeworms.[/quote]

Yes, especially after reading this knowing that large of a percentage of clowns is probably affected really lowers my chances of getting any healthy specimens.
Since this little guy just went thru the round of prazipro, pepso food and internal parasite guard I'm thinking it would probably be best to leave him go for a few weeks to see how things do. I really don't want to dose him with something else so soon, not only can I imagine it could be bad for him, but my personal belief of too many medications can lead to them not being effective makes me worry. Do you think maybe after a few weeks I should go ahead and order levamisole and treat just to be on the safe side as long as he doesn't show any signs of skinny before that, or would I be better letting things take their natural course? Once the holidays are over I plan on looking for larger clowns to try to up my chances on successfully keeping them and will order and treat with levamisole at that time. Don't know how long it will take to find larger ones or if I may have to order online because the local stores usually have only the small ones and they seem to be much harder to keep. I have seen larger ones once at Petco (ugh) and they wanted $25/piece for them! The better stores I know of are much farther away, but I do have the option of emailing requests for fish and they will let me know when they come in. Of course, they are still pretty pricey, and don't have long return guarantees, but the good thing is that is a time of year when tips are greatly improved (I am a parttime bartender) and that gives me more disposable income!
Off topic, but my husband thinks I am a freak worrying so much and even considering the levamisole! He just takes it all in stride and lets me do all of the worrying.....just as when he brought the last batch home. I told him as much as I wanted clowns (I can see the spot the HUGE tank will go from where I sit now) I didn't want to do it again. He still came home with them. I tried so hard to ignore them and insist that HE take care of the tank, the medicating etc. and I just couldn't do it.
Thanks so much for being so patient with me you guys.....I see you deal with posts of this nature all the time, and I know it has to be annoying to keep repeating over and over. And I really appreciate the friendliness, admittedly, I browse the forum regularly even if I don't post, and I have seen some pretty rough answers to some questions, as in not real nice about what they have to say. I actually stopped looking around for awhile because of some of it. No matter how much of an idiot a person is about fish, it makes one look bad if they come back at them in a nasty tone of typing (can't say voice since we can't hear ya ). I was half afraid actually to post anything this time because even though my brain is confused about all of it, I didn't want to get an attitude because I haven't bought and used levamisole yet!

[shari2]

I would just wait and watch. It may be that he is just fine. Seems so from what you've posted thus far. If the other two had skinny and he is showing no signs of it by this time it seems he is unlikely to succumb. If you are planning on getting new fish in the not too distant future and will be treating them, you could treat him/her at the same time just to be safe--or not. Once you have treated the new fish there should be no worries that they would be passing it on to him. In any group of clowns I've seen at fish stores it seems there are always just a couple who show signs of wasting and the others seem fine. But I have treated even 'healthy' clowns with levamisole anyway if I see any in the tank that show symptoms.

I would try to order the levamisole powder and store it in the fridge a bit before you bring the fish home. When the time comes post again and we'll help you with the dosing.

I also don't think medicating is necessary unless you see signs of something wrong. With one exception...I do treat wild caught fish with levamisole in the q-tank as a prophylactic measure.

1. Because it has proven to be an inoffensive medication and doesn't seem to do any harm to anything.
2. Because they're going to be in there for at least a month anyway and sometimes it takes a while for any signs of wasting to show.

I'd rather try to head it off at the pass than attempt to catch a fish out of a stable tank and stress it further. Not to mention the displacement in the pecking order and the need to readjust that again when the fish is returned.

[mikev]

A way to do this would be the following: buy 20 clowns from a place that does not treat (for example, Petland). Kill and autopsy them all. You should expect to see 5, maybe 7 tapeworms.

Yes, especially after reading this knowing that large of a percentage of clowns is probably affected really lowers my chances of getting any healthy specimens.

In most cases, the specimen will be fully cured once you dewormed it. It appears that in a few cases there will be residual damage which will make the fish weaker and slower growing for the rest of its life, but this is not common and probably would happen only if you allowed the disease to progress too far.

Since this little guy just went thru the round of prazipro, pepso food and internal parasite guard I'm thinking it would probably be best to leave him go for a few weeks to see how things do. I really don't want to dose him with something else so soon, not only can I imagine it could be bad for him, but my personal belief of too many medications can lead to them not being effective makes me worry.

There is no danger of drugs like levamisole not being effective in the future. The drug is also safe for the fish.

Do you think maybe after a few weeks I should go ahead and order levamisole and treat just to be on the safe side as long as he doesn't show any signs of skinny before that, or would I be better letting things take their natural course?

If I were in your place, I'd do this right now. Wait until other drugs are fully out of your tank and run at least one levamisole treatment. There are good chances that this way you would not have to worry about the skinny thing anymore. At least, not about the parasite-caused skinny.

Given that you'll have to have levamisole anyway, I'd order and use it now, you'll have enough left for any new clowns. You are really not saving any money by delaying.

As for looking for larger clowns as to avoid problems:

It appears that clowns around 1"-1.5" are indeed less stable. At 2"-2.5", if the fish looks healthy and you deworm it and provide suitable conditions, it should make it. A 2"-2.5" clown should cost around $10-$15. IMHO, there is no reason to look for larger sizes, yours will make it there eventually, and it is more fun to see your own fish grow.

hth

[kimmers318]

I know watching the little itty bittys grow is why I wanted to get them from 1 1/2 inch mark. I have watched my cories grow from little itty bittys to their full size and it is just so rewarding! Tetras of all sorts used to be my favorite fish when I had small tanks in the past, and when I started this time with a larger tank....I have very quickly become a "bottom feeder" lover with cories, kuhlis, and plecs!
Okay....I know you both also post rather frequently, and I am just being lazy here and not looking for it because I know you probably have right on the top of your head the website where I can order the levamisole at the most reasonable price, in the powder I guess since that is what Shari recommended. I will order it in the next couple of weeks (with me being off work for a week sick I am a little short of cash and don't want to strap myself this week) and have it ready if A) existing baby shows any signs B) I come across larger healthy looking specimens. Which will lead me to my next set of Q's.
Existing clown is currently in a 20 gal long with 4 kuhi's. Wanted to keep him here for as long as necessary to make sure no skinny was going to pop up in the next few months. I hope/plan to add 3 clowns around the 2-3 inch mark, which although doesn't sound much bigger as we all know the body gets wider as they get longer and it really is a MUCH larger fish. That would make 4 clowns with just the kuhli's which you barely can count all alone in the 20 gal long. I am hoping they will be okay in there for around 6 months...a long enough time to be assured no skinny sneaks up on me, and gives me time to get the 65 gal changed to sand substrate. The sand change over is a winter project I have on my list to do because I so far LOVE sand over gravel. As long as the clowns don't get over 4 inches in that 6 month time frame will they be okay in the 20 gal long? (footprint 30 X 12). That shouldn't be too much of a load on the tank, I am more concerned about their need for space. After that point they will move up to the 65 gal....footprint 36 X 18. That tank is woefully understocked because I am hoping to eventually "open" up my 29 gal for a puffer and at that time may add some of the tetras back into this tank. Up until what size do you think they would be happy in the 65 gal without making them feel overcrowded until they need the final home? Last, but not least...what size tank would you recommend for (hopefully) a group of 4 full size clowns? And if there really isn't much size difference if I were to say consider going up to a group of 6 in the long run, tank size for 6 adults. We really hope by the time the oldest one graduates (7 yrs) to have tankbuster clown babies in a tank showing the world what we love about them!