help - new loach died unexpectedly

[LUVaLOACH]

I wouldn't trust PetSmart to name the loach correctly. I noticed their $9.99 sale on what they called a angelicus loach so I came back to this forum to research it. It sure didn't look like the angelicus pictures on this forum.

I also got myself in trouble by buying what PetSmart labeled as an algae eater for 5+ gallon tanks and the clerk said was a Siamese Algae eater. Then, I find out it is a Chinese Algae eater which few would recommend for any tank. If I take it back, they will dispose of it rather than try to resell it so now I feel responsible for it. So far, its been very good and has totally taken care of the algae in a twelve gallon tank without attacking the slime coat on the gourami yet. I'm going to have to play musical fish to come up with a combination that will work with the fish. It may end up in a tank by itself.



Ofcourse, Petsmart was the store that sold me the clown loach to eat the snails in my 55 gal tank. That is going to cost me since I'm now planning for the 6 foot tank.

I know what you mean about petsmart incorrectly naming their fish, however, I had seen the angelicus before and knew what it was. They are such great fish. Sorry about your delima, I had the same thing happen to me when they sold me spotted climbing perch as african leaf fish, lol...that's petsmart for ya!

Kris

[chefkeith]

A TDS meter will tell you exactly how long you need to acclimate new fish. If the bag water and the q-tank water have the same TDS, then there is absolutely no need to acclimate. Just float the bag to get the water temp equal, then net the fish and put it in your Q-tank.

Measuring the bags water for pH, kH, and gH might help, but it would be much better to just measure the TDS because the others don't measure salinity. It's not uncommon for an LFS , Exporter, or Importer to have some salt in the water as a preventative or to treat the fish for external parasites.

IMO, far into the future, a cheap TDS tester will come with every bag of fish. In many years, it might finally be realized and excepted throughout the fish trade that TDS shock is the #1 killer for new fish (and old). The fish usually go belly up within the 1st 24 hours after TDS shock. Most of these deaths go unexplained by the dead fish owner and/or the seller.

[mikev]

A TDS meter will tell you exactly how long you need to acclimate new fish. If the bag water and the q-tank water have the same TDS, then there is absolutely no need to acclimate.

Are you absolutely sure of this? What happens if TDS is high and these are different solids?

[LUVaLOACH]

Thank heavens for information on the internet. I really have learned a lot because of my internet connection. It this point, I would recommend that anyone who wants to get into the fish hobby should have internet first.

Amen to that!

[newshound]

I would recommend that anyone who wants to get into the fish hobby should have internet first.

I would so second, well third this statement!
I think back at all the mistakes I made when I was 14 years old...over 20 years ago.
mistakes such as--
a ten gallon tank
that sat in a large south facing window
getting a rts, albino rts, albino frog, pleco, clown loach, three gold fish etc...for this ten gallon tank.
cleaning the whole tank at one time including filter (hello recycling tank)
no water conditioner
etc...
now ignorance is no excuse today.

[chefkeith]

A TDS meter will tell you exactly how long you need to acclimate new fish. If the bag water and the q-tank water have the same TDS, then there is absolutely no need to acclimate.

Are you absolutely sure of this? What happens if TDS is high and these are different solids?

Mike, that question doesn’t make much sense to me.
If the TDS is high in a freshwater tank, then that problem should of been fixed 1st. If these are hard water fish, then they’ll have more specific water chemistry needs that would of been known beforehand.

I just started researching TDS shock about 6 months ago. I have the same questions you ask too. I imagine most good fresh water breeders measure TDS, but they won't divulge their knowledge and secrets. So the base of our knowledge on this subject comes from where?
A well known killifish author, JJ Scheel wrote about TDS shock in his book “Rivulins of The Old World” about 20 years ago, and still his opinions seem unorthodox.
http://new.killi.net/keeping/water/scheel/

Here's some other links-
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/m ... 00949.html
http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/month ... 00361.html

What's myth and what's true?

[YellowFinned]

I have never sealed the bag while adding small amounts of water from my tank. I have left the bag floating open (sometimes takes some rigging) and added small amounts of water from the new tank.

So you just acclimate the fish to the temp of your tank not the new water conditions? Just curious.

Kris,

When you open the bag, you alter the chemistry. Float the bag closed, not open. Easier too.

[LUVaLOACH]

I have never sealed the bag while adding small amounts of water from my tank. I have left the bag floating open (sometimes takes some rigging) and added small amounts of water from the new tank.

So you just acclimate the fish to the temp of your tank not the new water conditions? Just curious.

Kris,

When you open the bag, you alter the chemistry. Float the bag closed, not open. Easier too.

Hi Yellow,

I must have mis-understood you. I thought you were saying that you floated the bag closed to adjust to the temp, then netted, then released. I thought you were saying that adding new tank water to the bag and sealing would alter the chem.

I always poor some of the LFS water out of the bag (they tend to fill it so full) then float the bag (sealed) for about 10 minutes or so to acclimate to the temp in my tank.

At this time I open the bag and float adding small amounts of my tank water to the bag with the new fish every 5 minutes or so. After doing this for about 15 minutes, I then net and release.

But, hey...If I need to close the bag after adding my tank water, I can do that too. Whatever works.

Thanks,
Kris

[YellowFinned]

I have never sealed the bag while adding small amounts of water from my tank. I have left the bag floating open (sometimes takes some rigging) and added small amounts of water from the new tank.

So you just acclimate the fish to the temp of your tank not the new water conditions? Just curious.

Kris,

When you open the bag, you alter the chemistry. Float the bag closed, not open. Easier too.

Hi Yellow,

I must have mis-understood you. I thought you were saying that you floated the bag closed to adjust to the temp, then netted, then released. I thought you were saying that adding new tank water to the bag and sealing would alter the chem.

I always poor some of the LFS water out of the bag (they tend to fill it so full) then float the bag (sealed) for about 10 minutes or so to acclimate to the temp in my tank.

At this time I open the bag and float adding small amounts of my tank water to the bag with the new fish every 5 minutes or so. After doing this for about 15 minutes, I then net and release.

But, hey...If I need to close the bag after adding my tank water, I can do that too. Whatever works.

Thanks,
Kris

No Kris!!

Once you have opened the bag, and immediately so, the water in it ain’t no good any more.

This is what to do (IMO only):

* take the bagged fish home and do not open it at all
* float the bag for about twenty minutes
* take the bagged fish out of the tank
* put a net over a bucket
* now open the bag and quickly empty the fish into the net so that all the water goes in the bucket below
* quickly take the netted fish and put it in the tank
* throw the water in the bucket away

[LoachOrgy]

yeah i have often have problems with fish from petsmart. they always seem very stressed. however, the new petsmart that just opened takes better care of their fish.

[LUVaLOACH]

Kris,

When you open the bag, you alter the chemistry. Float the bag closed, not open. Easier too.

Hi Yellow,

I must have mis-understood you. I thought you were saying that you floated the bag closed to adjust to the temp, then netted, then released. I thought you were saying that adding new tank water to the bag and sealing would alter the chem.

I always poor some of the LFS water out of the bag (they tend to fill it so full) then float the bag (sealed) for about 10 minutes or so to acclimate to the temp in my tank.

At this time I open the bag and float adding small amounts of my tank water to the bag with the new fish every 5 minutes or so. After doing this for about 15 minutes, I then net and release.

But, hey...If I need to close the bag after adding my tank water, I can do that too. Whatever works.

Thanks,
Kris

No Kris!!

Once you have opened the bag, and immediately so, the water in it ain’t no good any more.

This is what to do (IMO only):

* take the bagged fish home and do not open it at all
* float the bag for about twenty minutes
* take the bagged fish out of the tank
* put a net over a bucket
* now open the bag and quickly empty the fish into the net so that all the water goes in the bucket below
* quickly take the netted fish and put it in the tank
* throw the water in the bucket away

Yellow,

I have my brain back today, I get it, lol!

Kris

[mikev]

A TDS meter will tell you exactly how long you need to acclimate new fish. If the bag water and the q-tank water have the same TDS, then there is absolutely no need to acclimate.

Are you absolutely sure of this? What happens if TDS is high and these are different solids?

Mike, that question doesn’t make much sense to me.
If the TDS is high in a freshwater tank, then that problem should of been fixed 1st. If these are hard water fish, then they’ll have more specific water chemistry needs that would of been known beforehand.

This is true, but it is still a legitimate question. Firstly, most people do not track TDS at all (and neither do the stores); secondly, I want to understand how it works; thirdly, occassionally there are legitimate reasons for high TDS.

The issue is that if we still have osmotic pressure even with equal TDS readings, then TDS is simply an approximation. A better one than the pH reading, but insufficient to say "no acclimation is needed".

What's myth and what's true?

Would like to know this too. This is actually very interesting stuff.

[qumqats]

. . . snip . ..
No Kris!!

Once you have opened the bag, and immediately so, the water in it ain’t no good any more.

This is what to do (IMO only):

* take the bagged fish home and do not open it at all
* float the bag for about twenty minutes
* take the bagged fish out of the tank
* put a net over a bucket
* now open the bag and quickly empty the fish into the net so that all the water goes in the bucket below
* quickly take the netted fish and put it in the tank
* throw the water in the bucket away

Doing this is going to instantly kill the fish if there are drasticlly different water chemistries between the store and your tank!

So then the question is which shock is the lesser, the change when you open the bag, or the change between shop water and your tank water.

i.e. dumping the fish into your tank straight away
or drip aclimating the fish in the bag with water from your tank.

I'll vote for the drip system.

[chefkeith]

This is true, but it is still a legitimate question. Firstly, most people do not track TDS at all (and neither do the stores); secondly, I want to understand how it works; thirdly, occassionally there are legitimate reasons for high TDS.

The issue is that if we still have osmotic pressure even with equal TDS readings, then TDS is simply an approximation. A better one than the pH reading, but insufficient to say "no acclimation is needed".

I see your point. The specific gravity of the two waters can be completely different although the TDS is the same. It's possible and I didn’t even think of that. I guess the best thing to do then would be to measure the kH, gH, and TDS of the bag water. Specific gravity can be measured with a hydrometer also. Thanks for correcting me.

[mikev]

Yep.

Thank you for bringing up TDS, this is good stuff.

I need to think more about this and I'll probably post more later, but one immediate point:

While we cannot say that close TDS values imply safe instant acclimation, I think we can say that two low TDS values do. Maybe we can even define "low"? (Of course, low values would also be close).

The implication is that if one runs healthy tanks (frequent water changes --> low TDS!) and if one always gets fish from a healthy place (ditto), then the no-acclimation approach may actually be safe.

I do need to think more about it.... maybe get a TDS meter and play with it a bit....I think there is yet more stuff involved.

Any recommendation you can make on the meter?