Polka-dot loaches for my tank?

[MyraVan]

I have a new tank sitting in the corner of my sitting room. It's big: about 60 gallons if I calculate it right. The tank dimensions given are 100cm x 40cm x 70cm (39in x 15in x 27in). Mainly I want to put angelfish in this, but I want lots of other lovely fish to go with it!

For the bottom I have 100cm x 40cm of floor area to play with. I was thinking of the following for bottom-dwelling fish:

4 rams
4 polka-dot loaches (Botia kubotai)
6 corydoras (not decided which yet)

Clown loaches would be cool, but they get too big for this tank. The polka-dot loaches stay much smaller and have very cool markings.

Is this too many fish for the bottom area of this tank? And would the loaches bother the angelfish?

(Note, I am a reasonably experienced aquarist, and the tank is going to stocked very slowly, with lots of testing along the way...)

Thanks for any help...

[shari2]

Hi MyraVan and welcome to LOL.

I don't know about kubotai with angels, but clowns and yoyos did fine with mine. Though your mileage may vary with yoyos I've heard. All of the interactions between my angels and the loaches they've shared tanks with have been fine. The loaches seemed to leave them pretty much alone, and when food was at issue they held their own just fine. How many angels were you thinking of getting eventually?

Kubotai are very active and somewhat nosey little guys and will do best in groups. You may want a few more than four to keep them busy with each other.

As with any loaches, they need a mature tank, so they'd be some of the last fish I'd suggest in your stocking plan. Are you planning to jump start the cycle with bio material from another tank, or cycling from scratch?

[MyraVan]

Thanks for your reply, Shari.

I'm not sure on the eventual number of angels. I guess I just want it to look "right". I'm thinking somewhere in the range of 3 to 5 of them. If you have any advice for the right number of angels for that size tank, given that I want to have other fish as well, I'd love to hear it.

As for cycling, my plan is (1) throw a filter pad from an established tank in with the bio-noodles in the cannister (2) have lots and lots of plants (3) stock very slowly, adding one group of fish at a time and waiting and testing in between. I don't think I'll have any problems.

I will make sure I add the loaches as about the last thing. Probably the first thing will be some rosy barbs that are currently in my 20g tank, which I'm sure would enjoy the extra swimming space.

[newshound]

shari hooked you up well with info.
I'd say that kubs (P.D.s) are better than yoyos with angels just because they stay smaller. But of course YMMV.
I have had mature yoyos and kubotias and I really love kubs!!
So up front and active. They stay smaller so you can have more or them
I didn't see an algae eater in that list of fish. I'll say get a real S.A.E. or two
http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/
It sounds like your 20 gallon can act as a Qtank for the new fish AND plants.
How long has the 20 gallon been going?
check out about angel fish because I think they get nasty to each other as they mature.
Take water from the 20 gallon and put it in the new tank as well.
Remember the lighter the fish load the easier it is on you long term.
I'd skip the rest of the fish and just get loaches

[MyraVan]

The complete list of things that I want in that tank are:

angelfish
some kind of tetras
4 rosy barbs (I already have these)
3 Siamese algae eaters
1 bristlenose pleco or 1 royal farlowella or both
4 rams
4-6 kubotias
6 or more corys
maybe something else (headstanders, hatchetfish if angels won't eat them, rainbowfish, not decided this yet)
LOTS and LOTS of plants

So yes, I did plan to add some algae eaters. Actually the rosy barbs are algea eaters: they eat hair algae.

The 20g has been set up for more than 2 years. About 15 months ago I redid it by removing the plain gravel substrate and putting in a substrate much more suitable for plants, namely a Diana Walstad style soil & gravel substrate. Now it looks like an aquatic jungle. It's really beautiful...

My plans for the 20g is that it will remain planted and will be a home for things that would get eaten in the big tank, namely small fish, shimps, and snails. I love apple snails, think they are the coolest things, but they are completely incompatible with loaches!

I have never had a Qtank, but now that you mention it, I will have some serious investment in livestock when this new tank is fully set up, and I don't want that one last fish added to result in the death of all the other ones, so it really is a good idea...

I also have a 10g tank. It's also planted, but since I've redone the plants recently, it's not quite as jungle-like as the 20g. I've been wondering what to do with it... Perhaps I could use that as the QT. Would I have to remove all the plants to use it for quarantine?

[newshound]

a new 10 gallon only costs $10 in Canada
I wouldn't mix so many different fish together.
I find a tank like that very confusing.
I'd go with the SAE or the small plecos. Not both.
I didn't know that you've been keeping and are so knowledgeable about fish. Sorry.
I feel that cories and loaches don't mix well. Others feel differently.
have fun

[MyraVan]

Now that I think about it, you are absoutely right, newshound. That's way too many different kinds of fish. I find that you can often tell a beginner's tank by the fact that they will have one or two of a huge variety of fishes, and no proper schools of anything. In my excitement over this new tank, I was falling into this trap. Either that or I would end up way overstocking it!

So I will have:
4 rosy barbs
1 group of tetras
3-5 angelfish
1 bristlenose pleco or 1 royal farlowella (saw the farlowellas at the LFS and they look really neat)
a group of cories or a group of kubotia loaches
4 rams, or something else yet to be decided

And that should be plenty enough!

[shari2]

Something to consider before you use the 20 jungle as a qtank is that you'll have to get the fish out of there eventually! maybe the 10 that's not so dense would be a better idea.

As for how many angels. . .
Have you kept them before? They are cichlids and can be both territorial and nasty. Especially when in breeding mode. But they are beautiful in a nice sized tall tank.

If you plant heavily, and have broken up the tank into defendable territories they will stake out their own spots eventually. When not in the midst of sexual frenzy (and that's generally one week on, one week off once you have a pair). They get along fairly well with each other given that the omega fish have a place to get out of the way of the alpha one. At feeding time they will all chow down, but the smaller/weaker ones will get kicked out if they get in the way too much. They establish a definite pecking order as juveniles, and as they grow will continue to fight with each other for supremacy--especially the males.

If you get 6, statistically it is likely you will end up with at least one pair. They will get the biggest territory. The other males will go after the female. There will be fights.

They do have variations in personality. Some are more aggressive than others. Stay away from the wild caught silver scalare's if you want a peaceful tank. A group of females are usually less problematic than a group of males, but even males (if in a same sex group) will end up co-existing more or less peacefully.

They will get large. I'd suggest 5 or so. You may get a pair, or even 2 pair! If you get two, the odd man out will need someplace to hide--often.

[Setsuna]

G'day MyraVan. I dont know if you've kept angels and rams together before, but in my experience the angels attacked my rams nonstop. They left all other fish alone, just went for the rams. In the end I had to get rid of the angels.

I'm not sure if its because they're cichlids, or if it was just my angels being horrid fish, but I'm never mixing angels and rams again.

[MyraVan]

Thanks for all the advice so far!

I have never kept angels, or rams, or any cichlid at all for that matter.

Setsuna, I have begun to reconsider the idea of the rams already. I think one territorial type of fish per tank will be enough, and the loaches will occupy the bottom part of the tank anyway.

Oh, and I think I'll go for loaches rather than cories. Both are interesting-sounding fish that I haven't kept yet. Cories are small and co-exist well with snails, so I could conceivably keep them in my snail-friendly 20g at some point, wheras the kobotia loaches are much bigger and probably would eat the snails, so they are ideal for a big snail-free tank.

Shari, thanks especially for your advice on angels. I want to take care of them well. I will be planting heavily from the outset. I will find some graph paper (I'm sure we have some around the house somewhere) and actually make a plan of what I want to go where, so I know what and how much to order. This is such a big tank that the "order a few plants and then figure out where to stick them" approach I have been taking won't work.

I plan on buying the angels really small (body about dime-sized) to save money, so they will be able to grow up together.

One question I have is: I have some neon tetras (have had them for more than a year). I know that if angels eat neons in the wild, but I also read that if the angels are raised with the neons then they won't eat them. Would it be OK to put the neons on the big tank with the angels, and replace them with bigger tetras when they die, or should I find someone to give them to?

[shari2]

I've kept juvenile angels with a school of cardinals, and one odd loner neon (outlived his buddies). They are fast enough to get away from the angels, and with a group of angels to bicker among they pretty much ignored the tetras. I would say it should (but YMMV!) be safe, especially in a well planted tank. My tetras were often schooling around in a lower level than most -- maybe to give the angels plenty of room. And the angels went into the tank with them afterwards and were small to start with. Might help.

Also, if you feed them well, they won't be as inclined to look around the tank for other food sources. (like small fish!)

In my personal experience, angels do well with botia species. They will stand up for themselves, but can't do much damage to the loaches--loaches are fast and usually engaged in observing the fish around them. I've had them with clowns, yoyos, and even modestas and saw no interspecies aggression issues that led to damage. They all seem to get the territory concept and are aware enough of each other's space to cohabitate with minimal interaction. Once the angels got large, they went where they wanted and even would push into a botia-war over algae wafers with impunity. The botia would look shocked, think about shoving the angel, then think again when they saw that evil red eye turn their way. . .

I've had them with cories, too, but cories are so self absorbed that if they piss off an angel they don't even know it and end up getting rammed. Doesn't seem to do any damage, but the cories freak out...and they never seem to figure out what they should avoid doing and it happens all over again. They are not territorial at all and seem unable to grasp the concept that there are areas that they should stay out of...

In your planning be sure to leave a few open water areas for the angels. They'll need about 8" or more of plant-free depth in places where they can just 'hang'. They take up more space vertically than horizontally and especially if you go for the veil or super-veil variety.

When you're shopping for angels look for the following:

Nice round body shape (a slight notch just before the mouth is sometimes indicative of wild blood-not bad, just be aware)

No odd curvatures or indents in the body edges

Make sure they have all their fins! (some inbred strains of angels will be born missing ventral fins especially the light varieties)

Fins wide spread, no splits, planking, or fin rot

Eyes that fit the head, not larger than normal

Active behavior, good color, no dull patchy spots--healthy angels that have been tank bred will automatically come to the front of the tank if they see a person. They will frequently follow your finger if you trace it along the tank.

Avoid fish that hang back, or seem uninterested or are being heavily picked on by the other fish.

Generally speaking, even as juveniles of dime size, males are often larger than females. If you pick a batch that are all the biggest ones, you may end up with mostly males. If you want females, include some mid-size fish too. Avoid the tiniest ones, unless they have many excellent qualities and you think they may just not be getting their share of the food.

Most of the time a tank full of the same kind of angels are from the same spawn, or the same line of parents. Might be a good idea to get some from different tanks to avoid further in-breeding.

The double dark black variety are very pretty, but fragile and sometimes fail to thrive. Likewise the albinos (light gold to white with red eyes).

[MyraVan]

Wow! All I can say is, again, thanks for all your info, Shari!

[shari2]

You're welcome.

Would love to see some pics of the tank as it progresses...hint hint