Milky Skin on Clown Loaches ??

[thadius65]

I just recently found this forum and joined tonight. Loaches are one of my favorite fish. All my other favorites are in this tank. So, here goes my post:

I have (4) 4-5" clown loaches. I noticed tonight that 3 of the 4 have this milky cover to their skin. One of them actually has some of it sort of peeling off. This is a very very thin layer, almost like dead human skin. I did some searching on here and elsewhere with no success. Any thoughts?

All are doing fine and eating. No rapid gill movement or discoloration. No other fish in the tank are showing any problems.

Thanks for your help.

[loachmom]

Hi, I keep checking this post to see if you've gotten any answers. I'm curious to know what's going on. Hang in there!

[sophie]

I am not an expert on clowns; I've never owned any, but to me this sounds like there are problems with the slime coat and if that is the case you probably should be doing frequent (daily) water changes as I think this is usually a water quality issue.

Water changes are likely to be a good idea whatever teh problme is, as long as you don;t stress the fish.

I hope someone who knows a little more than me will answer this one soon!

best of luck.

[thadius65]

Sounds sensible, but I do 50% water changes weekly due to dosing ferts via EI method. None of that has changed. Is there a way to stimulate slime coat production? Remember, this is a 125 gallon, so dosing can be a real pain due to amount....

I almost put in some aquarium salt... but I have heard good and bad about it, so it causes me to rethink.

Ted

[Icewall42]

I've used aquarium salt with my loaches for a few years, but I recently stopped doing that because I heard it's bad for loaches. Better safe than sorry.

Anyways, I've been through a whirlwind of clown loach diseases, like ich, velvet, columnaris, and fin rot, so at first I thought you might be describing the velvet. But that would be a fuzzy grey cover of the skin, so that can't be it.

My guess would also be the slime coat. I know that sometimes clowns have little peelings in their slime coats, and there is a chemical called Slime Coat that helps replace these coats (as well as detoxify heavy metals) and the respective electrolytes. How much "peeling" are we talking with these guys?

[shari2]

Welcome to LOL thadius65.
Sorry for the delay in responding. Busy life stuff going on here.

Increased slime coat production has to do with the fish needing to protect itself from some type of irritant. The production of the slime coat has to do with a fishes osmoregulation. There are electrolytes that must be present in the water for normal osmoregulation to function. Its a physical barrier which inhibits entry of disease organisms from the environment into the fish. It is also a chemical barrier because it contains enzymes (lysozymes) and antibodies (immunoglobulins) which can kill invading organisms. Mucus also lubricates the fish which aids movement through the water.

Do you use any products designed to improve slime coat, like 'stress coat' or others?

there are a number of misconceptions that surround products that improve slime coat. Some products aggravate the Koi’s skin to increase slime production. Others coat the entire fish, including the gills, potentially impacting the Koi’s ability to breathe efficiently.

Have your clowns been flashing at all? How long has the excessive slime coat been present? Did it happen overnight or gradually? Have you added anything new to the tank without quarantining first?

Here's one cause:

Monogenetic Trematode infection Gyrodactylus sp. and Dactylogyrus sp.

(skin flukes and gill flukes, respectively)

Heavily infected fish show increased production of mucous, frayed fins, skin ulcers and damaged gills, Microscopic observation of the skin temporary mount of a portion of gill show the presence of the parasites. Bath in 100–250 ppm of formalin ranging from 1 to 3 hours, is very effective, Dip in 2–5% salt solution till the first sign of distress is equally beneficial. Bath or pond treatment with some soft organophosphorus insecticide (Malathion and @ 0.25 ppm in pond) lesion/smear is also equally effective.

Several other sources also pointed to parasites and or toxins in the water. Since you have 3 of your 4 clowns showing this symptom, I'd suspect something is in the water. If there's no gill abnormalities, it's not likely gill flukes.

HERE is a fishdoc page on the parasites. Skin flukes are easier to get rid of than gill flukes, but research carefully for treatments. Some are more effective than others, some are more dangerous than others. And watch for signs of secondary bacterial infections, as skin/slime coat damage can lead to secondary infections.

I'll check back in later today and see if I can help with determining a course of treatment. It may not be parasites, it is difficult to accurately diagnose fish via just descriptions. Any further observations of both fish behavior/appearance (ALL the fish in the tank) and background on the tank will help. Water parameters, occupants, decor, etc. and especially a picture if you can post one, will make it much more likely that we can determine the actual problem rather than making guesses.

[thadius65]

Shari,

Other than EI dosing, the only thing I add to water is a dose of H2O2 every once in a while to nip a CyanoBacteria (BGA) outbreak on java moss. It is shot directly onto the problem. I use about 40mm when I do it.

I will keep an eye on them and will try to get a picture, but they spook easy, not like your "eat from my hand" giants!

The only thing recent was plants via mail from another member on plantedtank.net ad the addition of 8 SAEs about three weeks ago (awesome cleaning crew). None were QT'd.

There was one other thing, but I hesitate to say yet until verified. Sometimes this can be a spec of food or something that just goes away, but need to monitor. On the side of one of the Clowns, there appeared to be something white protruding from his skin. I just noticed last night, so I wanted to give a day to see if it was just laying on there and nothing, or something actually on him/her. Only one and only on this one Clown. Nothing more. Will advise.

Ya know what is cool about these guys. As they get bigger, they look more and more Porpoise like. Awesome fish!

Thanks,

Ted

Note: Forgot to add that I run a Tetra UV1 in this tank 24x7.

Welcome to LOL thadius65.
Sorry for the delay in responding. Busy life stuff going on here.

Increased slime coat production has to do with the fish needing to protect itself from some type of irritant. The production of the slime coat has to do with a fishes osmoregulation. There are electrolytes that must be present in the water for normal osmoregulation to function. Its a physical barrier which inhibits entry of disease organisms from the environment into the fish. It is also a chemical barrier because it contains enzymes (lysozymes) and antibodies (immunoglobulins) which can kill invading organisms. Mucus also lubricates the fish which aids movement through the water.

Do you use any products designed to improve slime coat, like 'stress coat' or others?

there are a number of misconceptions that surround products that improve slime coat. Some products aggravate the Koi’s skin to increase slime production. Others coat the entire fish, including the gills, potentially impacting the Koi’s ability to breathe efficiently.

Have your clowns been flashing at all? How long has the excessive slime coat been present? Did it happen overnight or gradually? Have you added anything new to the tank without quarantining first?

Here's one cause:

Monogenetic Trematode infection Gyrodactylus sp. and Dactylogyrus sp.

(skin flukes and gill flukes, respectively)

Heavily infected fish show increased production of mucous, frayed fins, skin ulcers and damaged gills, Microscopic observation of the skin temporary mount of a portion of gill show the presence of the parasites. Bath in 100–250 ppm of formalin ranging from 1 to 3 hours, is very effective, Dip in 2–5% salt solution till the first sign of distress is equally beneficial. Bath or pond treatment with some soft organophosphorus insecticide (Malathion and @ 0.25 ppm in pond) lesion/smear is also equally effective.

Several other sources also pointed to parasites and or toxins in the water. Since you have 3 of your 4 clowns showing this symptom, I'd suspect something is in the water. If there's no gill abnormalities, it's not likely gill flukes.

HERE is a fishdoc page on the parasites. Skin flukes are easier to get rid of than gill flukes, but research carefully for treatments. Some are more effective than others, some are more dangerous than others. And watch for signs of secondary bacterial infections, as skin/slime coat damage can lead to secondary infections.

I'll check back in later today and see if I can help with determining a course of treatment. It may not be parasites, it is difficult to accurately diagnose fish via just descriptions. Any further observations of both fish behavior/appearance (ALL the fish in the tank) and background on the tank will help. Water parameters, occupants, decor, etc. and especially a picture if you can post one, will make it much more likely that we can determine the actual problem rather than making guesses.

[shari2]

OK-ignorant here, what is EI dosing?

not like your "eat from my hand" giants!

Wrong shari! That's mammaschild (whose name is also shari...cracks me up to write that when I talk to her )
Although, my guys are starting to do it too. It is soooo cool to feel them laying inside my fingers, they are like slick velvet. The 3" one always gets there first and just climbs right inside my palm to eat the bloodworms from the inside. That way the 7"-er doesn't bother him. lol

Back to the topic...

The SAE's could have brought a little surprise along with them. They are tough little buggers and possibly less susceptible to parasites than the very small scaled clowns.

...something white protruding from his skin.

Definitely keep an eye on it. I don't know how visible to the naked eye the skin flukes I mentioned are, but they can move around on your fish and once established, multiply very rapidly. I'll see if I can find any images and visibility descriptions somewhere.

Have you noticed any flashing?

UV likely won't have much impact on skin flukes. They stay on the fish and reproduce right at the food source, unlike ich which will fall into the water column and can be caught in the UV filter.

[thadius65]

Ooops, sorry wrong Shari --

EI Dosing (estimative index) is a method of dosing ferts and trace elements into your tank without constant testing. You do ferts M,W,F and trace elements T, Th, Sat and a 50% water change on Sun. (see articles by Greg Watson, Rex Grigg, etc). Neccessary for a high tech planted environment.

I will keep an eye on them. No flashing that I have noticed. Any other thoughts, let me know.

Thanks,

Ted

[thadius65]

So last night after the lights went off, I got the flashlight out. Getting different views shows the milky looking coating to be somewhat non-smooth. I don't want to say fuzzy, but sort of. The spot from the other night was gone and I did not see any others until this night view. It does appear that there may be some tiny protrusions on the body. I will review again tonight to make sure it was not just food particles or something.

I don't think they have ich, but not sure what else it could be? I tried to get pictures while light was on, but this does not show up with my camera.

I hate the thought of a full tank treatment for ??? due to it being a 125 fully planted with other fish, but I don't really have an option. Catching these guys would be impossible.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Ted

[shari2]

Some info on monogenean trematodes from The University of Florida

"Gyrodactylus and Dactylogyrus are the two most common genera of monogeneans that infect freshwater fish ( Figure 17 ). They differ in their reproductive strategies and their method of attachment to the host fish. Gyrodactylus have no eyespots, two pairs of anchor hooks, and are generally found on the skin and fins of fish. They are live bearers (viviparous) in which the adult parasite can be seen with a fully developed embryo inside the adult's reproductive tract. This reproductive strategy allows populations of Gyrodactylus to multiply quickly, particularly in closed systems where water exchange is minimal."

A good site for info on diagnosis and treatment:
Diseases of Fish Part 7

And a page with lots of images of Gyrodactylus sp.

If it is this type of parasite then yes, it is likely you'd best treat the whole tank. Read through the second link (it's a cached copy so the specific section is highlighted) and see if the symptomology listed there fits before you decide to do any treatment. It sounds like it's an opportunistic pathogen that just got a hold on your clowns for some reason. This means it's in the tank. Clowns having such small scaled, smooth skin may have made them the most likely to succumb first.

Most of these opportunistic type nasties are present anyway, and it is often only due to stress of some sort that will cause a weaker fish to become overcome by them. It may or may not have been introduced by other fish, but if it is reaching levels that are too high for the clowns to deal with, I would consider treating the whole tank as the better way to go. Especially since I know first hand how hard it is to get them out of established, well planted tanks. The stress is almost worse than the treatment sometimes.

After adding the 8 SAE's did you notice any aggression issues between them and the clowns? Increased aggression levels = stress too...

[LoachOrgy]

Shari, I am curious. Does an extra slime coat often appear that the fish is peeling? I notice one of my clowns that had the ich on it seems to appear to have peeling skin. The loach is acting normal and eating regularly. The loach even seems extra energetic recently.

[thadius65]

The SAEs are extremely good tank mates. They school together and are a peaceful eating crew. So , no sign of stress from that standpoint.

So if what you described is the cuase, what is the best remedy? And can it be done without removal of live plants? I don't use activated charcoal, so that is a non-issue, but I am sure UV needs shut down during any treatment.

Thanks,

Ted

[shari2]

Formalin or acriflavin (it's in the second link ). Check those out to see what affect, if any, they will have on your plants.

[thadius65]

I am not finding anything that matches my symptoms. So, I am going to try the old aquarium salt treatment along with bumping temp a few degrees. See what that does.

I added about 18 tablespoons (a few less than suggested on box) and rose temp to around 82 degrees.

Ted