Update on my skinny clowns and the Levamisole HCl treatment

[chefkeith]

I thought I should update my skinny Clown loach situation.

A recap-
In this past year, I’ve had 5 cases of clowns getting skinny. 2 RIP, which I euthanized because they were very emaciated, 2 clowns that are still in flux, and 1 has fully recovered and has fattened nicely..

Treatments over the coarse of this year-
Jungle Anti- Parasite, Prazipro, Ultra Cure PX, Maracyn I&II, and most recently I just finished a 2nd Levamisole treatment.

1 clown fully recovered after several treatments of Prazipro. I also added a new staple food to the clown’s diets. This clown really likes the new food, Ken’s 4 bit blend, and has gotten fat rather quickly. The other 2 skinny clowns ignore this food.

With the levamisole treatments- I had put the skinnier clown in the snail refugium to try to fatten him up, and the other stayed within the main tanks with the rest of the clowns.

(The water quality is the same in all the tanks including the refegium. The filtration is kind of centralized. )
(I have 50 clowns, half about 2”, the others about 4”-5” and before ripping me a new one, please watch my fish room movie linked below, they have plenty of space).

After the 1st treatment with Levamisole both of the skinny clowns developed many unusual splotches. The rest of my clowns were completely unaffected. I did a 2nd treatment about 2 weeks latter and now it's been almost a few months since I started the treatments. Most of the splotches have cleared up now. The real skinny clown managed to eat about 100 snails during this time.

Now, the skinny clowns don't seem to be getting worse anymore, but it’s difficult to see if they are getting much better. They have always been very fussy eaters and only want snails or tubifex worms, which is probably why they got so skinny.

I recently put them both in the refugium tank away from the other clowns so that there won't be any competition for food with them. I put some sand and a few dither fish in this tank to make them feel more at home.

Currently, I’m trying to feed them as much food as they’ll take.

Here is a picture log of the levamisole treatment-

This 1st pic, you’ll see a shadow inside the clown loach. Could this be a parasite? This shot was taken on Sept. 3rd.


I started the 1st levamisole treatment on Oct. 8th. The dosage was at 2ppm for 2 days, then 25% water change, then I added activated carbon to the filteration. Sorry, but this is the only decent picture I took after the treatment, taken on Oct 22nd-



I started a 2nd treatment on Oct. 27th. Same dosage and duration as before. Here is a pic from Nov. 3rd.



Here’s a pic from Nov 13th.


Here’s a pic of both skinny clowns from Nov. 29th-


As you can see, that shadow that was once very visible inside the clown has pretty much faded away.

I’ll still be doing one last levamisole treatment shortly.
So that I don’t just show all ugly pics, here’s a pic of one of my normal clowns.

[midman]

I just wondered what the snails were doing in there. Are these to feed the loaches or are they growing in there. The only reason i ask is because I heard that the round shell variety are poisonous to fish as they give off a neural toxin.

Just a thought - I could of course have it completely wrong.

[chefkeith]

It was a snail refugium were I kept 100's of my feeder snails. I'd call it clown loach heaven. They are ramshorn snails that I've been raising for a few years. They are not poisonous.

[chefkeith]

Here's an update on the skinny clowns.

I did a 3rd Levamisole treatment in December and I've kept these clowns in the refugium since, just so that I could make sure they were eating.

Since the 1st treatment of Levamisole, these 2 clowns have fattened up nicely, THATS UP UNTIL NOW.

A few weeks ago, I noticed some clear stringy feces again. Upon closer inspection I noticed a little fin rot, and some fungus around the barbels on one of these clowns. I quarantined and treated this clown for fungus last week, and this week the fungus is gone, but now he is getting very skinny again. So Today, I started another Levamisole treatment on all my tanks.

I'm not sure if this is going to help or not. I'm starting to think that this clown will never fully recover and be part of clown loach family that exists in the main tanks. I'll give him a few weeks, but I'm thinking about culling him for the greater good of my aquaria. I moved the other clown from the refugium to main tanks with the other clowns, to see if he can be part of the group without wasting away. This is their last chance.

I took these Pic's Today of the clown in the q-tank-








PS-
I still haven't purchased or added any new outside fish in over a year (since Dec 2005).


PS 2- Here's the past thread on the skinny clowns that I euthenized last year.
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

[shari2]

Since the 1st treatment of Levamisole, these 2 clowns have fattened up nicely, THATS UP UNTIL NOW.

A few weeks ago, I noticed some clear stringy feces again. Upon closer inspection I noticed a little fin rot, and some fungus around the barbels on one of these clowns.

So chefkeith, the one clown with the split center bar is in the main tank now? Did you notice the stringy feces in him too, or only in the one that's still in the qtank? The fungus was only on the one that's still in the qtank?

All 3 clowns received all the meds you listed above?
The fungus response could be due to lowered immunity...but levamisole is supposed to help keep that up at more normal levels.

How far apart were your treatments? I know you've had issues with spots that you have narrowed down to water issues before. Are these the same type of spots or different? they look more brown/green than black to me. The blotch on your one clown that cleared up does not sound like a granuloma (immune cells trying to wall off some foreign body (like a worm)) but it may have been. I don't know enough about it to say for sure.

Did you ever notice any worm-like masses either passing from the fish or in/on the substrate? When you did your water change did you gravel vac too?

Something else to consider is that they may not have been infected by only levamisole susceptible parasites. If they were also carrying trematodes the levamisole would not affect those worms. Digenean trematodes are indirect worms that use snails as intermediate hosts. Is there any chance that you could get some feces (fresh) and get a look at it under a microscope? Or maybe even a qtip swab of one of the spots or the fungus?

Did you get a chance to read the Levamisole article I recently finished? I'd like to add your experience to the mix of stuff in there, too. As well as use it for the upcoming (later) article on skinny disease.

It would be very helpful if we could isolate the parasite that is causing your fish to relapse. I've had that happen with one particular clown after 2 treatments with levamisole as well, but the third round seemed to have cleared it. You may be dealing with a different set of issues, however.

[shari2]

Just a thought if you want to try one more (easy) thing...

If you have a tank you could put him in that has NO snails, when digenean trematodes leave a fish and the eggs hatch they have only a few hours to find a snail host or they die. Give him a couple of days in a snail free tank, and see if he improves.

[chefkeith]

So chefkeith, the one clown with the split center bar is in the main tank now?

Yes.

Did you notice the stringy feces in him too, or only in the one that's still in the qtank?

Not sure, the stringy feces was from one of the 2.

The fungus was only on the one that's still in the qtank?

Yes

All 3 clowns received all the meds you listed above?

Yes. One of them got better, he has been eating all the staple foods, so he's gotten fat, and is one of the most social clowns I have now. The 2 skinny clowns won't eat anything but snails, shrimp, and clams.

How far apart were your treatments?

9/28, 10/17, and 12/18. The treatments were probably too far apart. So I probably have to start all over again.

I know you've had issues with spots that you have narrowed down to water issues before. Are these the same type of spots or different?

Different, but there was a crushed coral substrate in the refugium tank back when this happened. That could of caused the spots, but I'm not sure. The spots are gone now, and so is 99% of the crushed coral.

they look more brown/green than black to me. The blotch on your one clown that cleared up does not sound like a granuloma (immune cells trying to wall off some foreign body (like a worm)) but it may have been. I don't know enough about it to say for sure.

I think that shadow spot is just a birthmark, that comes and goes depending on it's mood. It can fade and darken just like the black bands. I'm not worried about this anymore.

Did you ever notice any worm-like masses either passing from the fish or in/on the substrate?

I never saw anything passing from the fish, but I did have some unidentified flatworms crawling on the glass in some of my tanks back then. I haven't seen them crawling around lately though.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... highlight=

When you did your water change did you gravel vac too?

Sand is in the tanks now. I use a shop vac to suck any dirt away from it's surface.

Something else to consider is that they may not have been infected by only levamisole susceptible parasites. If they were also carrying trematodes the levamisole would not affect those worms. Digenean trematodes are indirect worms that use snails as intermediate hosts.

I've treated all the snail tanks with levamisole and prazipro.

Is there any chance that you could get some feces (fresh) and get a look at it under a microscope?

Feces would be difficult to collect because I don't think the clown in question has been eating. I almost bought a microscope a few months ago, but decided to build a new tank instead. I still have one of clowns that I euthenized last year in the freezer. This frozen fish should be all that I need. I'm still working on getting that microscope.

Or maybe even a qtip swab of one of the spots or the fungus?

The spots have been gone for awhile. The fungus is gone now too.

Did you get a chance to read the Levamisole article I recently finished?

Yes, I loved the article. Great job on it.

I'd like to add your experience to the mix of stuff in there, too. As well as use it for the upcoming (later) article on skinny disease.

As always, I'd like to help any way I can.

t would be very helpful if we could isolate the parasite that is causing your fish to relapse. I've had that happen with one particular clown after 2 treatments with levamisole as well, but the third round seemed to have cleared it. You may be dealing with a different set of issues, however.

Sad scary part is, my 11 year old cat has had the same skinny symptoms in about the same time frame.
She vomits about everything I feed her. The cat was drinking dirty aquarium water from a bucket about a year ago. I'm trying to figure out what to do with her too. Going back to vet is out of the question. I've already spent about $800 on vet bills. Maybe the 2 things are related with the cat and the clown. Nobody seems to think they are related though. My other cat is perfectly healthy. My other clowns seem perfectly healthy too.

[chefkeith]

Just a thought if you want to try one more (easy) thing...

If you have a tank you could put him in that has NO snails, when digenean trematodes leave a fish and the eggs hatch they have only a few hours to find a snail host or they die. Give him a couple of days in a snail free tank, and see if he improves.

Good idea.

[chefkeith]

Here's a pic of the neon tetra that I've had in this tank for about a month due to it's swollen body. whoops. This fish has just died as I'm typing this.


This could definately be a nematode. I need to get this fish out of there.

[shari2]

Sounds like trematodes to me. They can infect humans cats and dogs too, so don't lick your fingers...

Praziquantel is the recommended treatment, but you did use that already once. Is there a chance the treatment wasn't complete?

The flatworm thingy...looks similar to monogenean trematodes...
Clonorchis sinensis is my best guess...
Treatment for them is Praziquantel...but the life cycle is long 30 days or so and you'd need to repeat treat or face reinfection.

[chefkeith]

That was weird. One minute I'm taking pics of a lively tetra, the next minute it just dies. Something is still moving inside it though. Maybe it's the heart beating or maybe it's a worm? Should I cut this fish open or what?

[tglassburner]

Cut it open!

[shari2]

definitely cut it open. carefully isolate the abdomen. Do it on something white. Take pics.

[chefkeith]

I only took one pic, then I managed to drop my camera. There really wasn't any thing to see anyway. The abdomen was filled with fluid and that was the only abnormality I could see without a microscope. Everything looked pretty clean to me.

[chefkeith]

Even if the clown gets better, there is still the problem that this fish is a fussy eater, and will probably waste away if I put it back n my main tanks.

I really don't see anything good coming out of this. My joy is taking care of the fish in my main tanks, but this seems to get over-shadowed by nursing 2 unhealthy clowns that won't eat staple foods.