Intro, substrate questions, and any southern californians?

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pierydys
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Intro, substrate questions, and any southern californians?

Post by pierydys » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:33 pm

Hello, everyone! Eep, how exciting and scary. I've been lurking around here for a year or so but finally got up the nerve to register and post, since I have a legitimate question that Google couldn't solve.

So, I'm setting up a new tank. Just got my hands on a 60 gallon, since I've been dying to upgrade for ages. I really liked the look of that soft sand that a lot of people seem to be using, but was wondering -- is there ever a problem with it getting sucked up in the filters, if the little guys are burrowing around all the time? Also, I've seen both black and light colored sand -- is there a difference or preference for the fish? Are there any alternatives to aquarium sand, since I'm looking at buying a fair amount? Is the composition different for different colors, and if so, will that affect water or fish?

I'm curious because I tried to do the southeast asian biotope thing with my other tank, ended up using lots of clay, and I swear the fish could care less. I read somewhere that the darker colored stuff was supposed to help shy fish, but even after I gave up on the biotope purity thing (I couldn't keep a plant alive if you put a gun to my head) and dumped in a packet of spare white gravel, nobody seemed to blink a fishy eye. So I'm guessing light colored sand wouldn't bother them, either? Do the fish even notice?

Sorry if that was babbly, I tend to fixate on these things :-)

A little about me -- I live in Orange County, California. Currently in school and making my meager income as a freelance fashion and costume designer, among other things. I've been into animals generally and aquariums specifically since childhood, and was known for being the 3rd grader who sat on the tire swings reading Axelrod's Handbook of Fish Diseases. No joke -- I got a lot of weird looks that year *g*

I became obsessed with the idea of having a biotope a couple years ago, so that's what my main tank, a 20 gallon, became. After a year, though, I'd ended up trading all of my original stock for a trio of clown loaches, which were far more entertaining than anything I'd ever kept before or since. The Great Ich Plague of mid 2006 took two of those babies, so the lone survivor, Scooby, hung out with a school of glass catfish for the rest of the year until I could bear to get more fish. He was joined by a kubotai who followed me home from the pet shop in January. Seeing those two give eachother wistful looks of "if only you weren't so funny looking" as they swam together made me feel guilty, so four baby clowns and two kubotai joined the pair. The glassies moved to a tank of their own.

What that amounts to is that I currently have a 20 gallon with 8 loaches -- 5 clowns and 3 kubotai, which I know will get crowded very soon, hence the new 60 gallon setup. They are all still wee things, though -- the biggest (Scooby the clown and Mimi the kubotai) being 2" SL. I change the tank every other day with R/O water, nitrates are rarely in evidence, and they are all bottomless pits come feeding time.

Once I get the substrate thing figured out, I hope to have the new tank up and running within the next week. How much old gravel do you think I'll need to seed the new tank for fastest cycling time? Would it help much if I filled it with some of the water coming out during my frequent water changes?

Oh, and one last question before I send this, since it's already a small novel -- are there any Southern Californians out there? I saw somebody in Lake Elsinore and somebody in San Diego, but that was about it :-( Still looking for some recommendations for fish stores and suppliers, since I'm new to the area.

Thank you all so much, and sorry for going on!

Regards,

Angela

mamaschild
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Post by mamaschild » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:10 pm

Welcome aboard, Angela :D

I'm in San Diego, but it's suprising how FEW So Cal people are on boards like this...at least so I've found out over the last few years :?

To try and help with your substrate question, I have just about everything in my 11 tanks....light sand, black sand, mixes of both sands, light and black gravel, gravel/sand mixed.....the fishies don't seem to care.

A lot of it is coloration. Black sand brings out colors that you won't see with light sand, and stuff like that.

I'm sure others here can give you more detailed answers, but that's what I've seen :)

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LoachOrgy
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Post by LoachOrgy » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:50 pm

i only recently upgraded to sand substrate but it is getting in my aquaclear motor and in my jethead motor. however, if you clean it once or twice a week it doesn't seem to be a problem.

i believe hemi suggested i get a canister but i just take the aquaclear apart and give it a good scrubdown to clear any sand.
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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:02 pm

If you use very fine grain sand that tends to float around a bit when disturbed you will have problems like LO's when the clowns start clowning around and kicking it up into the water column.

Pool filter sand is heavy enough that it sinks rather quickly, but with any sand you have to rinse, rinse, rinse and rinse some more to get rid of all the fine silt (and you will still have some anyway! 8)).

What filtration do you plan on using in the 60g? What do you currently have? If it's a hang on the back filter you could get a couple of extra sponges and hang them in the tank for a couple of weeks to seed them and then add them to the new filter along with some of the substrate or media from the older filter to jump start the new tank. You can also grab several handfuls of the old tank gravel and stick them in a pantyhose foot to put in the new filter, or hang in the new tank. That way you can remove it easily if you're planning on a sand substrate. Or you can mix it into the sand, depends on what look you're after.

Glad you finally took the plunge and said hi. Welcome to LOL 8)
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AnneMarie
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Post by AnneMarie » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:47 pm

Hello Angela,

Welcome to LOL we Californians need to sick together :wink: . I use a combination of sand and small gravel but Shari's suggestion of pool sand is good one. (wish I had know about it before)

Where in OC are you? I work in Foothill Ranch, so I fairly familiar with the area. If you are here in South County you are out of luck for good LFS. If you would like a list of some good ones in the Orange/Anaheim/Fullerton area just let me know. If you don't mind the drive there are two really good ones IMO in San Diego.
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Martin Thoene
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Post by Martin Thoene » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:21 pm

It took you a year to post? Wow......we must be really scary then :wink:

We don't bite really. Yes, generally a darker substrate will tend to lead to you seeing richer coloration in your fish. It doesn't necessarily have to be real dark though. In fact black substrate can dull fish down a bit too much in some cases. A nice mid-brown suits fine.

When I'm setting up a new tank I always use old water from another tank. Bacteria is everywhere, so using old water brings some in plus it carries dissolved solids and waste products from the other fish which helps seed the system and give the introduced bacteria something to feed on. Shari's idea of seeded gravel in a bag is excellent if you don't want a gravel substrate, or you could always put a thin layer in and add sand on top.

Another angle on Shari's HOB filter sponge idea is that if you're increasing tank size you'll probably want to increase filter capacity too, so you can get your new filter in advance and set it up in addition to the existing one on the smaller tank. After a while, bacteria will become established and you can just move it to the new tank. Using these methods in parallel you can cycle a new aquarium really quickly.

Welcome to LOL in your unlurking form :P Please stick around. You might want to go over to the Freshwater Forum and vote in the gender poll. The girlies need a bit of additional support 8)

Martin.
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pierydys
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Post by pierydys » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:24 pm

mamaschild - San Diego! Can't wait until the weather warms up enough to start spending weekends down there -- such a gorgeous place. I'm sort of surprised about the lack of Cali representation as well, depressing! Even the number of tropical fish hobbyist societies seemed on the sparse side, which is why I tried the online thing to begin with. Are all those people buying all those fancy aquariums in all those specialty shops just to take up storage space? *puzzled* Good idea about mixing, btw -- I think I'm going to do that. I never did like absolutes :-)


shari2 and LoachOrgy - Thanks for your help! Question about the pool filter sand, though -- I looked it up and most places said it was usually angular for more efficient filtration. Would those sharp edges hurt loachy barbels? It sounds idea otherwise. As for filtration, I was planning on getting an Emperor hanger, but took a peek at the Aquaclears just now and must say the prices are rather appealing. Might go with one of those instead. The 20g loach tank is using an Eclipse hood system, so the media would probably be hard to get to, but I can easily grab an old cartridge out of one of my other two tanks, which use Whisper hangers. I can take a few cupfuls of their old gravel and mix it into the sand as well, since I'm thinking of doing a sand/pebble/gravel cocktail anyway to experiment with textures. Do you think putting some fine mesh (like the panty hose thing you mentioned) around the uptake filter might stop it sucking sand?



AnneMarie - Wow, you work right next to me -- I'm in Irvine! Really close to the El Toro base, too. Bummer on the LFS front -- I was really hoping that my random wanderings and yellow pages searches were just a result of bad luck :-( I'm willing to drive a bit, though -- I go to LA three times a week for classes, so pass through North County anyway. Field trips to San Diego also are pretty common during the summer, so no reason why they can't include a fishy detour or two... *g* I'm so jealous of all those cities that have enough people to do group orders and gatherings. Sigh.

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Post by mamaschild » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:50 pm

If you make it down to San Diego, I can give you a couple places to stop.....

Aquatic Warehouse
5466 Complex St # 204
San Diego, CA 92123
(858) 467-9297

Pet Kingdom
3191 Sports Arena Blvd
San Diego, CA 92110
(619) 224-2841

I'm sure there are some further north, but I live near downtown, so ????

Just thought of something else....I don't know LA or Orange at all, so this may not help any, but Costa Mesa has a good Aquatics Society. A few of the people I know at the one here frequent both :) I can get more info for you if you want?
Last edited by mamaschild on Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Martin Thoene
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Post by Martin Thoene » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:54 pm

I would go Aquaclear every time. They're easy to service, don't need cartridges replaced..... 'cos they don't have any....... and are extremely reliable.

I would put an Aquaclear 110 on that 60..... your loachies will love you for it :D

If that sounds excessive to you figure that my 125 gallon Clown tank shifts 3000 gallons per hour through its filters and pumps.

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:10 pm

Welcome to Loaches Online, Angela! :D I use a couple of different silica sands in my loach tanks and have done so for years with no problems of it being sucked into filters/powerheads.

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LoachOrgy
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Post by LoachOrgy » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:15 am

i would like to add one thing........


emma suggested that i change to sand. well my tank is 100% cleaner now and i hardly have to vaccum anymore. the debris in the tank gets directed to one spot near the aquaclear and the loaches stir this spot up and the tank practically cleans itself. i tried to vaccum yesterday and it wasn't even necessary. i even stirred up 1" of sand to see if any debris penetrated and it didn't. so far i have to say, thanks emma my maintenance has gone down 50% since i changed the substrate! :lol:


my sand is very fine. the aquaclear tube is about 6" from the substrate near where all the loaches play. i believe this is why a bit of sand gets in it. but nothing out of the ordinary. a good rinse with the water taken out during a water change cleans it with ease. i have only had sand get in the powerhead the first week i changed to sand. i believe this was because the sand was still settling a bit a few hours after the change. since the change, the powerhead was cleaned one time and now it seems to be getting clogged less than before with the gravel substrate. before i had to clean the powerhead at least once if not twice a week with debris. now it seems only every two weeks the powerhead needs a good cleaning. an in depth cleaning is done only when the powerhead seems to slow down a bit.

one other thing i found is that changing the direction of my water flow has made things 100% better for the tank maintenance. i planned it to where the debris is in one spot and now its so easy to clean!
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AnneMarie
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Post by AnneMarie » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:03 am

I must second mamascild. Both of those stores are really good, I drive from Lake Elsinore once a month or so just to go look. My last trip resulted in my current fish restirction status, my husband was not pleased when I came home with a cooler full of new fish. :roll:

Where in LA do you go to school? There is a place called Stickley Fish in Lakewood that is well worth the drive.

I can round up the names of some good stores OC if you would like.
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pierydys
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Post by pierydys » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:26 pm

Martin -- Yep, a year. I believe I first came upon this site in March of 2006? That was around the time that I got my first trio of clowns, and I was checking out tank parameters. Instead, I got sucked into looking through all the pretty profiles and found myself planning entirely new tanks... Thanks for the filter info, I'm definitely going to go with the big Aquaclear, and will let it filter in the old tank to get it going.


mamaschild - Awesome, I'll definitely check those two places out in the coming weekends... watch my wallet quiver in fear :-D Is the Costa Mesa society COAST? If so, that was probably the only one that showed up in my searches at all, and I couldn't even find a website for them! Costa Mesa is right next door to me, so that'd be ideal. So yeah, I'd love some more information, or at least a way to contact them :-) Yay!

Emma - *waves* :-) I adore your giant clowns, by the way -- they are so inspiring to see after all the twitchy little 1" things I've encountered in most shops. Well, except for one place, but they were selling their 8" fish for $70 a pop. Sigh. Gotta grow my own, apparently. I aspire to have mine attain anything near that size, and have already decided that the first piece of furniture to move into my new place will be an obscenely huge loach tank *g*


AnneMarie - Is that Strictly Fish? I did a search in the Lakewood yellow pages and that was the closest I could get. If you think that's a good one, though, I'll definitely pass by on my way home from classes this week. I would love info on those other stores as well, visiting new stores is such fun. Fish restriction status, hee! My boyfriend has been teasing me about the new tanks, but given the way I'm going, he's probably going to be getting worried soon as well :-) All he ever wanted was a cat. Bahaha.

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AnneMarie
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Post by AnneMarie » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:30 pm

Sorry spelling goof your right. I will put together the list and PM you. I have to agree though I love going to new stores.
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AnneMarie
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Post by AnneMarie » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:34 pm

Sorry spelling goof your right. I will put together the list and PM you. I have to agree though I love going to new stores.
"In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria." --Ben Franklin

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