New Tank update, clown question.

[pedzola]

Some of you might remember that I posted about my new tank a while back...

I ended up having some problems, but I think everything is resolved now.

Anyone ever use bio-spira? I thought it was supposed to work like magic overnight... but it's been maybe 10 days since I added it (w/my fish) and I've still got .25 nitrite in the tank. I even added a second dose 2 days after the first. (two 3-ounce packets - $50 ). So... I've been kinda frantic since adding all the fish because it was supposed to cycle overnight and it didn't.

On top of that, (or maybe BECAUSE of the non-instant cycle), my new "troupe" of clowns (4 little ones!) got ich. Because I didn't want any meds to interfere w/the bio-spira, I simply added salt to the tank. (Added 10 tablespoons per day until I was at 50, which = 150 teaspoons, or 2 tsp/gallon). Temp was constant around 80F. (higher than that inhibits bio-spira bacteria)

Lo and behold, the ich went away within a few days (about the time that ammonia FINALLY dropped to 0!).


So it's been a little stressful, but now the ammonia and nitrite have finally dropped to where I dont' need to do water changes all the time, and there is no more ich. All the loaches (7 clowns, 3 yo-yos) and other fish (15 cherry barbs) seem happy and healthy.


So heres a question I have for all of you......

My 3 older clowns (about 1-year old... around 3" long) are very scared now in the new tank. The new little clowns swim all over and come out to get food... but the old clowns just hide all the time. They are petrified of people... they only come out at night when the lights are off.

Should I be concerned about them eating? When I feed the tank they seem to get little bits of food that float past their faces, but nothing else!

If I were to feed the tank w/the lights off when they are more active, would they be able to find the food?


These 3 clowns used to lay on their sides in the very front of my other tank... and would happily come to the top to eat... so I was surprised when after almost 2 weeks in the new tank they are still so terrified of people approaching the tank, and are always hiding.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

[mikev]

Anyone ever use bio-spira? I thought it was supposed to work like magic overnight...

Nothing containing living organisms can be ever guaranteed to work like magic. Or to work at all.

Biospira has an excellent reputation because it often does work, but given the problems with its storage it is certain that occassionally it will fail. The same applies to any other bacteria source.

The only safe way to proceed, IMO, is to validate that you have a working N cycle before adding any fish. Basically, back to the fishless cycle. Use of biospira should make it much faster, and you may hope for something like 3 days (this is a guess, I did not try to seed with biospira YET), and imho 3 days with a guarantee beats overnight with russian roulette type risks.

(There is another new bacteria source, saw it in the store last week, the name escapes me right now. It is cheaper than biospira, $4 per package, claims to have no storage problems, and may be just as good for starting a fishless cycle as biospira).

As for the uncycled tank-ich connection, this is almost certainly true. Poisons like ammonia and nitrites depress the immune system, just like overcooling does.

HTH

[Jim Powers]

I just used Bio-spira on a new setup a couple of weeks ago. Like you, I got a bit nervous when the ammonia level rose to .75 after three days. But, it dropped off to 0 by day 8. The fish showed no stress and I wouldn't have known I had any ammonia had I not run a test. The highest the nitrites got was .1.
I talked to some people who have used it and was told that this was normal. Others have had no ammonia at all in startups. So, as mikev said, since we are dealing with live organisms, there are no guarentees.
I do think it is a good product. Perhaps part of your problem was that you were doing lots of water changes, adding salt, or perhaps you just had a weak batch of Biospira.
Your clowns will be able to find food with the lights out. Loaches have a great sense of smell and are active in low light conditions, so that shouldn't be a problem.

[pedzola]

I was told that to use bio-spira effectively you need to provide a "full load" of fish at the same time as you add the bacteria.

I had done some research on aquariacentral.com forums and people there seem to have great luck with the stuff. They dump it in with a new tank full of fish and overnight a complete cycle has taken place. They say 3 days if not overnight.

I was not so lucky I guess.

After putting the first dose I waited 48 hours to do a water change, as it says to do on Marineland's bio-spira documentation.

After the 48 hours I had .5 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate. (apparently batch 1 did nothing at all).

After this first water change (30-40%), I added a second package of the spira. 48 hours later I had .5 ammonia, .5 nitrite.

Did another 30-40% water change. Nitrite went down to .25 and has not gone up or dropped since. Ammonia dropped steadily from .5 until it finally read 0. Took another few days for that.



Anyway... thanks for your thoughts... I guess it's sort of a luck thing w/bio-spira. Didn't even think about "fishless" cause it seems to be an important part of the directions to have fish when you add the bacteria.

All seems to be good at this point. Hoping to see the last remnants of nitrite dissappear in short order.


So I've read some other posts about clown "shyness" and I'm wondering if my clowns will ever be the same? Are they going to be scared and hiding forever, even while their little friends are swimming all over the tank? =(

My transplanted yo-yo's do not seem so timid as the clowns, though I did see quite a bit more of them in the old tank as well. They both seem to have "dug in" in the new tank... finding a nice spot with a good view of the tank and literally digging the gravel out under a piece of driftwood or etc.

The clowns on the other hand stay completely out of sight.

[Wendie]

I have used Bio-Spira four or five times with excellent results. I usually add the fish within a couple hours of the Bio-Spira. I cycled one tank with it and then several months later did a stupid thing and removed 70% of the fish and cut back the plants at the same time.... oops!!! The readings went thru the roof. I put a packet of Bio-Spira in and within hours everything was back to normal readings. I keep one or two packs in the fridge but you need to remember that they have a short shelf life and if not used within 6 months they need to be tossed. I order from a store in PA and usually get extra packets to keep in the fridge. If you don't keep them in the fridge, the bacteria activates and they will spoil if not used immediately. They are express mailed with a coolant.

Both the Yo Yo's and the Black Kuhlis were added immediately to a tank with Bio-Spira set up with no problems at all. I put the BS in the tank about two hours before they arrived and then just did the normal introduction to the tank and water. I did nothing else to the water other than use the declorination stuff. No loses and they have all grown like blazes.

I have been using Bio-Spira for well over a year now....no complaints.

[pedzola]

I think i might have gotten a bad batch or something... I got it from my LFS... they kept it in a fridge and they are pretty new (haven't even been open for 6months!) so I figured it was safe.

*shrug*

[Martin Thoene]

I've never used Biospira, but I think the storage of a lot of aquarium stuff can seriously affect the performance.
Ever thought about that carbon impregnated filter material they sell in sheets? It sits out in an open display for ages. Carbon is going to pick up all sorts of things from the air in the shop before it gets into your aquarium system. This stuff ought to be stored in sealed bags, That's the only way to ensure it's not taking up all sorts of things that might be detrimental to your aquarium.

Martin.

[Jim Powers]

That's a good point about the carbon pads.

[pedzola]

I've got a couple of tanks that use the marineland bio-wheel filters, which I usually purchase in packs of 3. After I open the pack I always store the remaining filter cartridges in a ziplock for just the reason mentioned above.

The fact that any carbon filtration product is sold outside of a plastic bag makes me wonder what the shelf life is.

I use marineland carbon for my eheim cannister filter, and it comes in a convenient plastic jar w/a screw cap!

Anyway.... can anyone offer me hints about how to get my clowns to stop hiding?

Is there any particular food that I should try? I've been feeding a lot of frozen foods lately, because I feel they kinda deserve it for putting up with the new tank and etc I guess. hah =X

Frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, daphnia. Other than that I've been feeding some tetra flakes and hikari sinking wafers. (I never see anybody eat the wafers but they always disappear.... )

Any ideas? Should I try sinking some kind of vegetable? I've heard a lot of people feed their loaches veggies....

[mikev]

The "weak batch" is exactly the thing that made me worried. Even if biospira works 95% of the time and small ammonia/nitrites spikes are not dangerous, using biospira makes me rely on the lfs storing it properly (or a mail order place shipping it properly). And relying on the lfs on anything seems counterintuitive. It appears that I may have to set up a hillstream tank in a rush, and being too afraid to draw the short straw, this time it will be Biozyne, followed by a fishless cycle.

[pedzola]

I've heard that Bio-Spira is the ONLY product on the market that contains the proper nitrifying bacteria for a freshwater aquarium. This is not just marineland hype, apparently.

You can read more in threads here: www.aquariacentral.com


I had not thought of "fishless" but I suppose if you try bio-spira with pure ammonia instead of fish, it would be the same thing, right?

You would just have to keep dosing the ammonia to keep the bacteria alive until you add real fish.

If you do try this other product, please let us all know how it turns out.

[shari]

I've used a product called "Bacter Vital" made by Marc Weiss Co.

http://www.marcweissco.com

Worked perfectly for me twice. Once to cycle a 30g for a quickly needed angel grow out tank. Once to set up another tank when one of mine sprung a leak (WHAT a mess!). Comes in a ziploc bag in a white opaque bottle. At least it did when I bought it. Store in fridge.

[mikev]

I've heard that Bio-Spira is the ONLY product on the market that contains the proper nitrifying bacteria for a freshwater aquarium. This is not just marineland hype, apparently.

ALL products contains bacteria, the difference is simply how it is stored exactly. Bio-Spira contains active bacteria; the tradeoff is that while it will do much faster job in most case, it is also more prone to dying if not stored correctly.

I had not thought of "fishless" but I suppose if you try bio-spira with pure ammonia instead of fish, it would be the same thing, right?

This is exactly what I meant. Use ammonia to build up the bacteria to larger level than you really need, and move lots of fish at once without risking a spike. When I did my 65g I dumped large danios and a plec into the tank without a spike, waited until pleco pooped all over the place ("established tank", right ), then moved the clowns in.

If you do try this other product, please let us all know how it turns out.

I will, but it will not be informative: I intend to cheat as usual and also add some media/gravel from an established tank. I only care about the result...

[Lotus]

Concerning the hidey clowns, there are a couple of suggestions:

- Make sure there is a cave at each end of the tank for them (and one somewhere in the middle if it's a really long tank). They like to know they have somwhere to escape wherever they are in the tank.

- Rearrange their caves slightly. A small change in their accommodations can bring out a big change in their behaviour. The other week I removed some plants that were blocking one of the back entrances to the loaches' cave, and now they are out more than they have ever been before!

- Dither fish. Schooling, timid fish help the loaches know that all is safe in the tank. The loaches know that if the little fish are hiding, danger is near, and if they're out and cruising, that it's safe for the loaches to come out.

I'm sure others will have more suggestions.

[pedzola]

Thanks for the suggestions!

I have tryied to provide several places to hide in the tank. There are 3 rather large pieces of driftwood that provide very many hidey-holes and natural "caves." My yoyos seem to enjoy excavating under the driftwood to make their very own safehouses. In addition I just added a false rock cave that seems to be the new favorite destination for all my clowns.

As for dither fish, I have 15 small cherry barbs. I only found out after I purchased them that they don't really "school." Well, in my 75g tank they don't school at all. They kinda stay generally together on the same side of the tank... but they are really individuals.

Do you think thats a problem? Should I get some better schooling fish?