Losing my Loaches and Balas!

[PitterPatti]

Well, should have quarantined, didn't, am now losing my balas and loaches. The guppies seem to be fine though. (weird combination hugh, but they all play together)

My PH, ammonia, and nitites test normal and or were none. I am new to the hobby, have had this tank up at least 3 months and everything was great until I added these last two balas to replace the other two that strangely died after I first got them a couple months ago. I thought the loaches looked weird these last couple of days and then that bala shark died. My loaches are very small and very fast, it was hard to tell for sure in the water with glasses on, ugh. They just never seem to hold still to be able to see them well.

I am so sad. I lost my first loach last night, and moved the other 3 to quarantine so I could up the heat. Treated with ick guard, at half strength. 6 hours after that I lost that first one, so I treated with the additional half dose. I figured it was critical, and it was a last ditch effort. The second loach to passed at noon today, well he looked much better last night and this morning, even trying to eat algae etc. I was quite surprised.

I still have a very tiny loach and the biggest loach in a big conk shell (which I will be retiring now soon), and haven't seen that bigger loach in 4 days. :(

I found out that none of the 3 heaters I have gotten with used tanks would take the water up to 81 and hold it........ugh! I tried using a combination of the three even together and kept it at about 80.4 more or less. May have been too much fluctuating that that finally killed that second loach. What a mess.

I am so sad.

I think I will keep these two in quarantine until the ick is long gone. Put the guppies in the 20 until the ick is long gone.

QUESTION IS.......HOW TO I SANITIZE THE 55 GALLON TANK TO GET RID OF THE ICK........

bleach?

and the plants, and ornaments, or should I just let the guppies ride it out in there and keep treating for 4 more weeks etc........

I am at a loss
Patti

[PitterPatti]

Oh, one more thing. I read the archives here, and researched and went to local fish store and all he had was ICK GUARD. I mentioned cutting the formula in half for the loaches, and he said, once a week he treated EVERY tank in his shop with ick guard. full strength and it didn't bother the loaches. (ugh)

Then I asked about taking the frogs out and he said he treated every tank, even the ones with the frogs in them and it didn't hurt them.

I would think that one dose wouldn't do anything but make the fish resistant to ick...........???..........???

Anyway, I will probably be shopping at Petsmart going forward.....friends haven't had problems buying fish there and this other is now the only LFS in town.

Sad.

Patti

[PitterPatti]

I mean..................

I would think that one dose wouldn't do anything but make the ick resistant to treatment with ick guard??????...........?????????


Patti

[mistergreen]

Hey,

First of all, are you sure it's ich? Fish stricken with ich don't usually die that fast. Something else might be going on here.

And if you leave a tank empty with no fish in it for 3 -4 weeks, the ich will die off.. Raising the temperature to 86F will speed up this process.

[PitterPatti]

it looks like the pics of ich to me. small dots......mostly on the loaches fins and on the body too, and on the body of the balas. don't see anything on the guppies yet. And they are having a hard time breathing. At least the sharks appear to be.

I just noticed that my small loach has a black dot between his eyes, I have never noticed it before, but he was so small when I got him. The other loaches do not.

These are clown loaches.

I have these fish in a bag in water in the fridge but you cannot tell by looking at them they have ich. like it is now gone since they are dead? maybe with magnifying glass.

thanks
Patti

[mikev]

Hi, Patti,

Sorry to hear about your problems.

Most meds, including Ich Guard, do not do much in the first few hours. At this time the infection in the gills progresses undeterred by the meds. If you have an advanced case of Ich and know that the fish is in the immediate danger, a salt water dip is the most effective way to buy time. (you may want to read on Ich lifecycle, it is good to understand the enemy).

Resistant Ich is quite possible, but it seems that more efforts are needed to create it that just a single treatment. A long series of insufficient treatments will indeed create it, I've seen this happening.

Sterialization: if you sure it was merely Ich, just run the tank on ammonia for a while, with no fish. At 90F, one week is sufficient.

And ALWAYS quarantine. Ich is a very mild disease comparing to some other things out there...

[PitterPatti]

boy, let me clarify, the dead fish are in a bag of water in the fridge.

The balas that died appear to have a hard time breathing.

Patti

[mikev]

APPEND: to your followup post:

With Ich it is much easier to diagnose on live fish, simply post the pics of the infected fish (do any that are alive still show the infection?). What you describe does sound like Ich all right.

A black dot is probably not significant, but again, a picture will help.

hth & good luck.

[mikev]

boy, let me clarify, the dead fish are in a bag of water in the fridge.

You can also use alcohol, IME, it preserves the specimens better. Cheap Vodka is the simplest approach.

The balas that died appear to have a hard time breathing.

Yeah, likely Ich in the gills. "Hard time breathing" with Ich means that (1) you must increase the airation to the max immediates (2) you should consider a salt bath to relieve the gills, you may not have time for the regular meds.

[PitterPatti]

okay, the last bala probably isn't going to make it unless I do something.

salt bath, how do I do that?

and the two loaches are in this big conk shell and I won't be able to get them out.........so I will have to take the conk shell in whole with fish and give it a salt bath too. Is it okay to give loaches salt?

I haven't yet, too many say not, so I avoided it as I couldn't be sure.

thanks
Patti

[PitterPatti]

You said "Most meds, including Ich Guard, ....at this time the infection in the gills progresses undeterred by the meds. If you have an advanced case of Ich and know that the fish is in the immediate danger,

should I have gotten them on antibiotics too...........????????????

thanks
Patti

[mikev]

okay, the last bala probably isn't going to make it unless I do something.

salt bath, how do I do that?

and the two loaches are in this big conk shell and I won't be able to get them out.........so I will have to take the conk shell in whole with fish and give it a salt bath too. Is it okay to give loaches salt?

I haven't yet, too many say not, so I avoided it as I couldn't be sure.

thanks
Patti

Here is an old post on LOL that gives one formula for a bath:

http://aquaweb.pair.com/forums/archives ... read=82249

Make sure to read the followup posts, they will tell you why you cannot do this. The truth is in-between: Salt is not good for any fish, including loaches, but if you have a really advanced case, this may be the best/the only way to safe the fish. Salt will generally not burn, only irritate/stress the fish, but it will kill the parasite on the fish.

WARNING: Clowns are very prone to stress. The procedure of catching an already weakened clown and placing it into an irritant may kill it too, easily.

IME, I did this successfully and also failed to do this when was warranted (and lost all the fish in the 2nd case). My own cases, however, involved hillstreams which are much more salt-tolerant; a store here did this with clowns and it worked fine. With the cases I've seen so far, I'd not hesitate to use a salt bath with hillstreams, and any botia; with clowns -- only if I'm pretty sure it will not make it without drastic measures.

ALSO: Salt bath, even if it will relieve the fish from the parasites on it, is not the full cure. You still need a full course of a regular med (e.g. Ich Guard) to kill all the Ich in water.

Antibiotics are useless against Ich, the pathogen is a Protozoa. There are other drugs that are effective, but they don't give an instant relieve either.

hth

[mikev]

You said "Most meds, including Ich Guard, ....at this time the infection in the gills progresses undeterred by the meds. If you have an advanced case of Ich and know that the fish is in the immediate danger,

should I have gotten them on antibiotics too...........????????????

thanks
Patti

No, antibiotics are pointless. The only way to get an immediate relieve is a bath or dip in a disinfectant. Salt is the most common, but actually there are others.

You can read about dips here:

http://www.algone.com/fish_dips.php

Potassium Permanganate, incidentally, is another way. It is claimed to be very effective...and very dangerous to the fish.

[chefkeith]

Here's a copy of one of the most popular ich articles on the net written by Daveedka. It details using the salt method.

http://www.aquariumboard.com/forums/articles/25.htm

[PitterPatti]

this is fabulous info on ick ! thanks so much.

Thanks everyone for all you have suggested etc.

I bought a stealth 250 watt heater and put that in the 10 gallon tank....will move it to the 20 or 30 gallon eventually, that should be able to keep the temps high to kill the ick and stable......

I put some melafix in the loach 10 gal tank, and the little baby came out! and jetted around, and acted normal, acted like he was glad to see company. I have pics but it is so late, I will put up tomorrow night. It just looks like ich. This little one is pretty covered. That great article mentioned not doing both ick guard and salt, too much stress. Also it said to be sure to use ick guard with RO water, so I am NOT going to take out 25% and replace with ick guard tonite in tap water. I can do at lunch tomorrow as I don't have RO water here right now. Meant to get it....

I really hate to mess up the poor guy anymore....kind of feel like he had energy, maybe he can make it, course, so did the one that died this morning before he passed. ugh.

Anyway, he went back in the big conk shell. No getting him out of there now.

Patti