Kuhlis can be weird

[mikev]

I think you may be just a little prejudiced, Mike...

Yes, sure, but -- now being serious -- I have a(n unproven) theory about the loach genetics that justifies the seemingly absurd statement made above. Later.

Personally, I find loaches in general to be fun and facinating fish.

Sure, but you learn more from some species than from others. For example, you really need years of observations of CL's to find something new & interesting. The same goes for most Botia's. But Pangios are quite giving. I'm seemingly getting into hillstream pangio morphs ( ) in part because I expect to learn something from them.

And for relaxation you can't beat a stately angelfish posing around a planted tank...or their babies, just cruisin along next to the parents, floating happily.

I actually might be getting into this at some point..., but not for a few months. Why? -- because if Danios fail as a sex stimulant for Pangios, Angelfish becomes the most promising candidate. (Actually, Angelfish probably IS the most promising candidate, but danios are simpler to deal with.)

[Martin Thoene]

You guys that are talking about fine "stripes" on kuhlis surely mean their ribs......that's what you're seeing.



Martin.

[mikev]

Wow! It is really nice to see a problem fully resolved with one fine picture.

What is the red area? Not eggs, not anus,.. is it simply food?

[Wendie]

The slanting position on those stripes - "ribs" - is different from what I saw and also smaller. I saw a normal kuhli type stripe. I'm going to take some photos again and perhaps I can catch the one in question. There was only one fish that this appeared on and he was young. They were not thin stripes, they were normal stripes like a regular kuhli. These fish have grown considerably since that happened so I don't know if I will find the one or not as I did lose one. I accidently murdered it moving something in the tank.

[mikev]

What I saw was certainly slanted and about as wide as on Martin's picture. I _think_ that the slant angle was different (more vertical), but this is a different species which may have a slightly different rib cage.

I'm certainly not excluding a possibility of another stripe pattern, but it is not observable on any that I have. TBA, I'm a bit more excited about the P.M./P.S. stripes (and P.M./P.S. in general) since they are something we see easily.

----------------

Forgot to mention: I looked at that kuhli batch very briefly yesterday again, I think most of them will make it (but wait 2-3 more days to be sure). I think they are all P.S. with a couple going extreme in the other direction: the stripes are almost triangles. A couple or more of gravid females. I'll likely have to go to that store a couple more times this week (setting up a new tank per Martin's and Jim's instructions). If you want I can ask them about a possibility of them shipping a few to you, or -- much safer -- delivering a few to the train station.

As for the Almond Leaf, a failure: I was promised all the leaves that come in with new loaches, but it amounts to very little: a couple of narrow slices from a leaf (someone is saving $ somewhere). No point to use this, it will have no effect on the tank but may introduce some infection. Where do you get yours, if I may ask?

[Wendie]

You can just make these out. They seem to have faded as he's grown.

Oops well I did put a pen on there to show you the three spots.... There's one behind the eyes above the red area, one a bit further back and then a third one. These appear to be wider than the rib stripe.

Sorry my camera is not that good for close ups.

[Mark in Vancouver]

Geez.

He-heh. And it will get worse

What do you expect? Pangio is the true loach, of course we are interested. You would not expect us to pay the same attention to CL's who are simply a degenerate overweight form of Pangio that lost most of the stripes

I would be interested to hear you describe a single case of another family of fish (particularly) or other animal that can be shown to have evolved from a morphological shape as we understand loaches and the kuhli variations.

I would far rather consider the eel loaches as an obvious evolutionary step in morphology that would occur in a defined area according to IMO obvious site-specific variations than claim the group as the progenetor. That's silly.

If we take Pangio as the evolutionary model, how do you explain the expansion of the family Cobitidae to regions like Ireland and North Africa? Sorry to say it, but BALLS! That theory is invalid in so many ways it hurts to contemplate.

Many species of plants and animals are thought to have evolved in the lush Indonesian region, but the primary scientific interest has been in the extraordinary biodiversity among the islands. Perhaps the early material landed here, but it is not indicative of the (presumed) family group. We see the diversity of kuhli loaches, which Dr. Kottelat (note the spelling) has observed, but the wide-bodied loaches (if we assume an evolutinary relationship) are clearly the progenetors. Sinobotia are as eel-like to the north as Pangio might be to the south.

Drink less coffee and study the things of which you speak.

[mikev]

That theory is invalid in so many ways it hurts to contemplate.

Mark, please. It hurts me that the above quote was taken as a theory of any kind. This was most certainly unexpected and unintended. Perhaps the misunderstanding occurred because I could not figure out what "Geez" referred to...

[mikev]

This actually would have been a decent photo if I only cleaned the glass... Too late now, she does not show up in front of the tank every day.... Hopefully the green area is sufficiently visible.

Is she a P.M. or a P.S.?
Too few stripes, and some irregularity, and smaller overall size --> P.S.
But the stripes go deep down, and you can see a good orange --> P.M.

Now, this is really confusing...

My feeling: P.Myersi.

Incidentally, she came from Petland and back in August was one of those small skinny less interesting loaches I got only because there were no other kuhlis around...one never knows.

[cybermeez]

Is she a P.M. or a P.S.?

If her other side has a pattern as regular as this one, I'd say she's most likely a Myers Kuhli. BTW, how long is she?

[Wendie]

I'm just starting to see a very faint green tinge on one of mine. They were hungry tonight and out in full force.

[mikev]

Is she a P.M. or a P.S.?

If her other side has a pattern as regular as this one, I'd say she's most likely a Myers Kuhli. BTW, how long is she?

Thank you for the ID'ing!

Yes, the other side is equally "boring". I *think* she is about 2 3/4", likely still not fully grown; there are two more equally gravid in the knot.

I'll post pictures of the others *if they will be kind enough to come to the front glass*.

I'm just starting to see a very faint green tinge on one of mine.

Maybe it is the season indeed? You should get some more!

Talking about the season: the same tank also has 1 likely gravid Javanicus and 3 likely gravid Danios (I am not fully sure how a gravid Danio should look like, but this seems to be it). It also has no hope of babies, too many loaches.

[mikev]

Here is the latest KUSS episode (the kuhli shipment to a lfs here).

This was a shipment of 100 striped kuhlis, and this time I wanted to see what is happening and try to improve the survival rate -- and failed, as you'll see.

The deal with the store was that they will not immediately put the fish on sale but quarantine for 3 days; I came to the store when they were getting the shipment and even brought the meds for the q-tank (the store does not sell what I like).

We checked the water in the shipping bag --> very high ammonia; but most of the fish were alive (only a couple dead). I saw them starting acclimating the kuhlis, did not have time to wait for them to finish, and left them the meds (actually measured them) and wrote the instructions (what to put when, add extra air to try to deal with the poisoining ....).

The next day, naturally, all the fish were on sale, the quarantine idea abandoned. (Explanation from the store: you already found ammonia, so we know what the problem was, why bother with quarantine.).

In two days, there were quite a number of dead, and perhaps 20 covered by fungus. And I did not see any kuhlis last time i've been to the store, looks like a 100% kill (It is doubtful that anyone bought fish from a heavily fungus-infected tank...looked pretty bad).

(I'm seriously annoyed with what the store did btw,...and besides the kuhlis, they lost $300 in profit trying to save on the q-tank)

My sense of this is that a big part of KUSS is the damage to the immune system due to poisoning, and this leads to the fish being extremely vulnerable to any kind of infection for at least a few days.

The implication may be that there is another strategy for dealing with KUSS: instead of waiting five days for some fish to die out, get them the moment they arrive at the store, and put them on meds against everything conceivable right away.

[TammyLiz]

That is so sad. I'm frustrated and I'm not even the one who was there. If only we could MAKE people do the right thing. Alas...

[shari]

Were all 100 in the same bag? Just because they are low mass fish and starved before transport, you can't expect to put that many fish in a bag and not get ammonia! the fatalistic attitude of lfs employees and owners about whole shipments dying is disturbing.

And Tammyliz, the 'make someone do it' method never works long term.

For education to be effective the students do best when they are motivated to learn. Business owners see the bottom line, usually. Want them to learn? Keep pointing to the profit and loss issues. Pound on the profitablity of maintaining good conditions and a respectable reputation. Motivate them where they live and they might get motivated...maybe. Make the education as incremental and pain free (low cost, low workload) as possible. Make them aware of places like Emma's who do GREAT repeat business because of the quality of their shops. If that doesn't interest them, they will lose business, face loss of profit, and go out of business eventually. (except for the huge chains who prey on the ignorance of the public they think they can bamboozle, and do)