Whoa... what's up with this horseface loach?

[Icewall42]

I went to the pet store today and got myself a fine looking horsface loach. I put him in the 30 gallon quarantine tank with a new tiger loach (I've since learned to quarantine fish after previous epidemics). Just now I see him stiff on his side, not breathing... but suddenly he will spazz out all over the tank, up and down and in circles, then go stiff again.

What's going on here? Temp is a little warm at 84F (but going down), pH is 7.2, and Ammonia was something like 25 parts per... million? The tiger loach appears fine. I put in a half-dose of Melafix to treat any bacteria that they might have come in with.

Any clues?

[mikev]

Quarantining fish from two different sources (even two different tanks in one store) may be quite dangerous. If one of them carries something really nasty, you may have both dead. -- this really happens. It is more practical to have two 10g Q-tanks than use a 30g for quarantine.

As for the horseface behavior: this may be an attempt to hide too. What kind of substrate/hiding places you have in your 30g? (no experience with horses, but I'm quarantining a group of new loaches of another but also burrowing type right now, and they do seem to play dead since they cannot burrow well enough.)

[Icewall42]

It just has gravel right now... I don't really have the means for two ten gallons at the moment I think this fish is quite dead now. After all the erratic behavior. It's so strange.

[crazy loaches]

If your ammonia is realy 25ppm you might be introuble, just a couple ppm can be lethal especially with pH values over 7.0 were it will be in its more toxic form. Was this tank cycled? You might want to add something like Prime to help reduce the toxicity of the ammonia and start doing some water changes like 25% every few hours to get it down to atleast under 1ppm, and perhaps add some established media to the tank to help establish the beneficial bacteria.

[mikev]

Very sorry about the fish... this happens. Lots of fish in the stores are ill, they may linger for a while if not touched, but the stress of moving and acclimation may rapidly send them downhill.

Hopefully this is not a transmittable disease.

Here in NY, 10g tank set is $28 (Petland). It is only the basic stuff, but it is sufficient for non-hillstream loaches. There is an even cheaper set that does not include hood/lights, a piece of cardboard will do.

The point is not that 10g is better, it is just less risk not to quarantine together, and it is cheaper if you need to medicate.

As for Melafix: it is not an antibiotic. It does not help with any serious disease. It also has an unfortunate effect on some loaches: for example, it spins kuhlis into erratic swimming.

hth

[Diana]

What is the water chemistry in the store's water? pH, KH, GH?
Does this match your water?
Even the simple dip-stick tests can help in this matter:
Get the Q-tank ready with relatively soft water.
Float the bag in water the same temp as the tank to equalize the temperature.
Dip-stick the store water in the bag, before adding the fish to the tank, and add whatever is needed to the Q-tank to match the store water.
You can then drip acclimate, or simply release the fish.

Even if the store is in the same city, and on the same water service as yours this is no guarantee the water is the same.

[Icewall42]

Hmm it's not so much the price of the 10g tanks, it's the space. We literally have none, not even enough to store our other things (we moved from a bigger place). I could pull the 30g down and replace it with two 10g, but then I'd have no palce to store the 30g... so I'm not sure what to do.

The tank had been previously cycled, but it wasn't being used for a few weeks. I placed a filter from the cycled 72g onto the tank, and the gravel was the old gravel. All I did was change the water and scrub the algae off the sides.

I will need to test the the store's water chemistry to find out if it is just too different from mine. I acclimated the fish just as Diana described for about 20 minutes. I was worried about the ammonia being a little high, but I wasn't sure if that would settle down since I had just changed the water and added the dechlorinator. I will need to test it again tos ee if that has gone down.

I also used the Melafix because the Horseface has a torn fin that needed some help healing. My question here is, why does it say it's an antibiotic if it isn't?

[mikev]

Yeap. I know the space issue all too well.... Still, best not to quarantine new fish together, wait until animal(s) is proven healthy, move them out of the qtank, put in new ones.

Acclimation: 20 min is IMHO too fast. If unsure about the water, do 1 hour. Still, IMHO it is unlikely that only 20 min acclimation will kill a healthy loach by itself.

Melafix:

Melafix is a breakthrough antibacterial remedy that uses a derivitive of the Melaleuca (Tea Tree) to treat bacterial infections in fresh and saltwater fish. Rapidly repairs damaged fins, heals open wounds and ulcers, stops mouth fungus, and treats fin and tail rot. Safe for reef aquariums and live plants. Causes rapid growth of new fins and tissue in as little as 4 days of treatment. Safe for scaleless fish, fry, and invertebrates. Will not affect pH, stain the water, or harm the biological filter.

In other words, a natural substance that repels some bacteria. Not an antibiotic. Herbal medicine vs real medicine.

Turn fin: in most cases, good quality water is the best approach. I had now three cases of deteriorating fins with new loaches, all Kubs. First two were cured by extra W/C. The most recent one (I got 6 more Kubs about a month ago, the most interesting one had it) did not respond to water, so I gave him two days of Furan. Worked.

Ammonia/Nitrites in the water should be dealt with first, then ensure that the water is low in nitrates as well, and it will usually mend by itself.

good luck!

[Icewall42]

Generally I acclimate for 30 minutes, and for many years that amount of time has been adequate. I've never had a fish die as fast as this one did... it's possible that it was inffected with something that got aggravated by the stress. I noticed some intestinal bleeding on the dead fish this morning, so... maybe it came with the disease?

The tiger loach I bought at the same time is still alive in the tank. I'm going back to the fish store today to get a replacement fish, and to have them test the water to see if the water was possibly bad. It's kind of odd, it seems to me, since I changed much of the water before adding these fish.

[crazy loaches]

I have no idea what else might be going on in your tank but the ammonia (and possibly nitrites?) would be enough to kill. When did the Tiger go in there? IME horsefaces are a bit more sensative and also prone to insufficient nutrition at the lfs so it wouldnt be out of the norm to have porblems with the HF and not the Tiger. If the Tiger was in the tank first then chances are the ammonia is a result of it and probably crept up slowly enough. But putting a fish into the tank after the levels were already up is more of a shock. Of course if you put them both in the same time then thats not the case, and I'd have figured putting an established filter in there with only two fish should be able to handle the bio load. I cant remember for sure but I think your beneficial bacteria wont still be alive after 2 weeks without you feeding them ammonia, if I recall they start dying off within a day or two without a source of ammonia.

I'd be double checking those ammonia and nitrite levels and focus on getting them back down to zero.

[Icewall42]

The tiger botia and the horseface went into the 30g at the same time. I completely changed out the water before they went in, but I left the gravel alone and palced an established filter on it from the 72g. The only possible killer I can think of would have been the ammonia, which I still it's strange that there was so much in such new water... I'll have to keep testing and trying to get those levels down :/

Thanks for the help, everyone.