Can clowns tolerate a ph of 4.5 ?

[clownygirl]

Most of my clown loaches seem to have black splotches on their bodies. These are not clown markings. The black stripes appear discoloured in the area of the splotches and the splotches are a dark grey to black colour on the yellow sections.

All clowns are doing fine, except two, who are getting more and more sluggish and developing cloudy eye. The same thing happened to another clown in the past and he died. Fin rot also has set in for most clowns.


I just got myself a test kit and here are the findings:

PH: 4.5 in clown tank, 6.5 in mbuna tank, 7 in bucket of water sitting around for 4 days ready for water change.

Clown tank NO2: 0.1

Clown tank Ammonia: 0.1

After 20% water change with water sitting for 4 days, PH in the clown tank came up to 5.5

I checked the ph the next day and it was at 4.5

I removed every piece of decoration, driftwood, even replaced the filter and did a 20% water change. The tap water had a ph of 7.0.

The next day i tested the ph in the clown tank it was again at 4.5.

Now every day a 20% water change is performed but the ph does not go above 4.5

Please help me understand what’s happening. Some of the clowns have huge black/brown spots and fin rot like symptoms.

[mistergreen]

sounds weird... 4.5 is on the really low range.. I wonder what's causing the problem.. It could be the driftwood. Try a 50% water change... You should see an increase. Change the PH slowly so the clowns can adjust without health issues.

according to this site, clowns prefer a ph of 6.5-7.0

ps. what's your substrate?

[Emma Turner]

Hi clownygirl,

As long as the pH is stable, clown loaches will be comfortable in water with a pH of 4.5. Mine, in fact, were kept at a pH below 3.8 for some time with no problems. I wouldn't advise people to do this, but the pH in my tank dropped very gradually over time and was watched very carefully.

After a time, I wanted to raise the pH, so added more remineralising powder to my RO water during water changes and also added some bags of aragonite to the filters to help stabilise the pH. It now sits around 6.0 all the time.

At a pH as low as 4.5, the ammonia will be having no or little effect. If you suddenly raise the pH (not advisable anyway), the ammonia will start to become a real problem.

The low pH will not be causing the fin rot. That will be a water quality issue. You have said that you have nitrite present in the tank, and there should not be any presence of this in a mature healthy tank. When you carry out maintenance on the tank, how do you clean your filters? Do you also have a reading for nitrates?

Emma

[clownygirl]

This 79 gal clown tank has got gravel that is around 5 years old and lots of driftwood. The filtration is currently provided by a BOYU Internal power filter which has replaced the old ATMAN power filter. I changed filters around 2 weeks back.

I initially suspected that the driftwood or decorations were causing the ph drop so I removed all driftwood and decorations, replaced filter and then check the ph in the tank. It remained constant at 4.5.

The pics of the clowns are uploaded here. Let me know what you think it causing this fin rot and black splotches:

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d152/ ... k%20spots/

I rinse the sponge in tank water during my weekly water changes. I will provide an update on the current nitrate reading by EOD

[mikev]

Almost certainly, the cause is the low buffering.

You need to check kH, and most likely it will be 0. [If it is not 0, I'm wrong and you need to look for other causes. Some of what I wrote below will still apply, but not all].

Now, with no buffering, ammonia cannot be processed fully. While ammonia is less toxic at low pH, it is still toxic and should not be there. Nitrite spikes are possible in low buffering conditions.

Solutions: add crashed corals to the tank AND/OR add some alkaline buffering with every water change. Add only a tiny amount of it, since you don't want to raise pH. This should alleviate the ammonia problem within a day or two, and the nitrite problem will be fixed soon after.

This type of problem is typical for tanks that were running for a while, especially if the bioload is high.

While low pH has no effect on the fish, constant exposure to ammonia/ammonium/nitrites will weaken the fish and trash its immune system. The result will be secondary infections (fin rot) which a healthy fish can deal with but an immune-deficient cannot. You may even see some fungal infections.

When you fix the water problem, you want to maintain very clean water for a couple of months since the immune system takes some time to recover and you don't want any pathogens around. Running a UV may not be a bad idea during this time, or (cheaper) you can add small amounts of Meth Blue -- it kills some bugs in the water. At the very least, intensive water changes.

Antibiotics can be used to deal with infections that are already present, UV or Meth Blue would not do much good for those.

hth

[Diana]

Please also test and post KH (carbonate hardness/alkalinity) and GH (General Hardness) test results.

In tanks with no carbonates the pH can fluctuate. While pH changes in themselves seem not to be much of a problem the other chemistry changes that can be linked to pH can be a problem.

If the KH and GH is 0, then the nitrifying bacteria are having a hard time, too. These beneficial bacteria really thrive with a pH in the low 7's, and some minerals and carbonate in the tank.

Lets see the test results.

If the problem is low KH and GH, then I would add different sources of these minerals until you can maintain KH and GH at least 3 degrees, and pH somewhere in the 6's to about 7.
Coral sand, Limestone, Oystershell grit, Cuttlebone and baking soda are all sources of carbonates.
I use Seachem Equilibrium for GH, there are other products out there, too. You are looking for a source of Calcium and Magnesium, mostly. If you have plants in the tank a better blend of minerals is preferred.

[clownygirl]

Thank you for the suggestions. Just wanted to let you know that this tank has been running for the last 2 years. Its kind of overstocked with 79 gal to 70 inches of fish.

I will upload new pics by EOD and try and get those meds you have suggested.

A strong pungent smell has been coming from this tank for a while now. The other tank does not smell/stink like this tank. This has been present for over 3 months despite frequent water changes.

Update to your question:

Tap water is used during water changes. I am stilling trying to get myself a GH and KH test kit. The ph of my tap water is 7.0

[Diana]

Aquariums should not smell like that. There is definitely something wrong. Activated Carbon can help to remove the smell, but the source must be located and eliminated.
A healthy tank has a very slight smell, mine have a lot of plants, and the tanks smell like a healthy, growing garden. Not fishy at all. Not foul.

Could there be a dead fish or a stash of uneaten food under a rock or something? I would do some very thorough gravel vacs, lifting all the mermaids and ceramic castles and rocks, and cleaning very well under such things. Any hollow things should be removed and rinsed so that stagnant water inside is removed.

Check everything that is in the tank.
There was a line of aquarium decor a couple of years ago that looked like realistic anemones, the marine things. The decorations were a rubbery sort of stuff that made it look like the anemones were alive. Problem was that they fouled the water and made it stink really bad.

What is the pH, KH and GH of the water you are using for water changes? (Tap water? Other?)

[The Kapenta Kid]

Could you be a bit more specific in describing the smell. I know you say pungent, which suggests to me an irritating smell like vinegar or ammonia, but maybe you use the term loosely. Is it perhaps a smell like rotten eggs or rotting cabbage?

[chefkeith]

Is it the same smell from when you moved the clowns to the bucket? If it is, then probably it's the clown loaches making the smell. Clown loaches have been known to release noxious stink bombs.

Driftwood can also stink real bad if you have any.

and what the others said.

[Tinman]

How clean is your gravel, can anything be stuck in corners or under a decoration? Have you cleaned out your filter sumps,this sounds like something causing a smell is making your tank acidic....... If your tap water is 7.0 as you stated. Remove any trapped pooh and try to get more airation on the surface of your tank with either a pump or air bubbles at the least.....

[mikev]

Nitrites can lead to very strong smell (I will not try to describe it). "Pungent" has been used to describe both Ammonia and Chlorine.

It is probably best to fix the Ammonia/Nitrite problem asap, and then worry about the smell, if any remains.

Few points:
1. kH is much more important than gH in your situation, so try to get at least the kH kit.
2. kH test is available as one of the fields on the multitest strips, it is not very accurate but will give you an idea.
3. If you really cannot find the kit around, you can try to add A VERY SMALL AMOUNT of alkaline buffering, and recheck ammonia in say 6 hours. It well might be gone.

[clownygirl]

I got myself a kH test kit. The kH for both the tanks (clown and cichlid) is 3dKH. I used a Sera kH test kit, the instructions were not very clear but I think I got the readings right.

Can't tear the tank down as I an about to go away for a 5 day holiday. It is really not possible to have any dead fish in the tank that I do not know of. I keep count.

The tank is relatively easy to clean and maintain. Weekly water changes are done and gravel vac is a standard practice. The smell is like vinegar…I think.

The ph of the clown tank is again 4.5
The ph of the cichlid tank is 6.5.

Same water source....??? this is driving me crazy.

Is there something I need to do since I am going for a 5 day holiday...

Updated pics of tank and one affected clown:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d152/ ... CF2962.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d152/ ... CF2833.jpg

[mistergreen]

aww. poor clowns.
try 1/8 a teaspoon of baking soda.. It'll neutralize whatever acid & raise your KH.. Be careful, a little goes a long way.

ps. you might be overstocked or feeding too much... Maybe that's where the smell is coming from...And this is a new or old tank?

[ckk125]

im not trying to be harsh...

But the filtration a little bit too less for clowns...

Fin rot? get some antibiotics...you stated that azoo products are readily available?try the anti bacterial powder..it worked very well.