Hillstream Loache Ill

[mikev]

Yes, unfortunately, anything that lives on the bottom of the tank is often thought to eat only waste food and other fishes waste.

I just saw -- for the first time -- one of SpA eating a bloodworm

Anyway, something like this ok: ?

While hillstream loaches will make full use of the algae in the tank, they also need regular "loach" food: algae wafers, shrimp pellets, and occassional frozen bloodworms. Most hillstreams will not top feed, so flakes are not recommended. Softened vegetables can also be fed.

(My SpB eats flakes, but it is probably an exception...SpB eats everything)

Wow, when you guys get an idea you really get stuff done. Whatever you do with it, I want a copy to give to my LFS, if you don't mind.

I think the idea is that we all do this, and maybe cut down on the horror stories a little. I think that the final copy will exist within a couple of days. And then maybe we can get to the real important flier: "Kuhlis are also people"

[Jim Powers]

That's good. However, I wouldn't say "occasional " bloodworms. Many, including myself, feed them everyday. They are definately a hillstream favorite as is frozen brine shrimp . Flakes aren't the main food, of course, but many species will eat them when they find them. Softened vegatables might be too general. Maybe something like "par-boiled spinach and kale leaves are eaten by some species" I do think that someone on this site was feeding hillstreams zuccinni, but I'm not sure.

By the way, that's good news about one of your SpA eating bloodworms. I'm sure they will all be eating them before long.

[Gary Herring]

Also, I am not quite sure if you should rule out housing hillstreams with goldfish. If the goldfish are small and the hillstreams used are bolder species like Pseudogastromyzon cheni and fasciatus, and the tank is well filtered, I think it would be okay.

It is certainly would be best in terms of the flier acceptance if you don't rule out goldfish totally; it would give most stores a viable option of selling hillstreams (otherwise, a new specialized tank is required for everyone). I know someone who does this (with Gastros) but have no idea about the long-term effect.

Difficult one this. I can definatly see where your both coming from. In an ideal world every hillstream loach sold would go to a river tank. But this is clearly not going to happen, and if we rule out goldfish tanks and standard tropical tanks altogether, it makes it more likely that shops and their customers will take no notice.
However, IMO a goldfish tank(particularly a fancy goldfish one) is unsuitable for two main reasons. 1) Fancy goldfish will not tolerate any current, and 2) Unless theres a plentyful growth of algae, feeding a loach in a tank with goldfish is almost impossible. As anyone who has kept them will know, goldfish are total pigs, and will smell, hunt down, and devouir any food withen minutes of adding it to the tank, no matter how well hidden. This is obviously a huge problem becouse many hillstreams have to be coaxed into feeding over time, and keeping them with goldfish will mean they cannot graze at their leasure. I have experienced this first hand, as i was mis-sold my first hillstream as an 'algae-eater' for my goldfish tank. Luckily i found LOL and set up a river tank before any harm was done.
Sorry to complicte matters, but IMO, goldfish tanks is not a good route to go down, and these fish should be marketed away from GF and 'normal' tropicals, as perhaps 'coolwater tropicals', for tanks with, as already suggested, WCMM's, Danio species, some barbs,etc.

[Martin Thoene]

The goldfish tank thing is out of the pdf that mike sent me. Looks pretty cool actually! He had added a banner at the top "With the compliments of Loaches Online", so I got him to run that past Jeff for his OK.

I agree that a small bit on feeding would be a good idea. It needs to be kept simple though. It is a flyer, not a "how to".

Martin.

[shari]

Just to muddy the waters further...I know of at least one discus keeper who keeps hillstreams in his planted discus tank and they are doing well. There is no fast flow, but lots of hiding places and plants and algae to graze. the temp is also over 80F...

[Martin Thoene]

Shhhhhhhhhhhh...ari

Martin.

[shari]

on the other hand, the tank is obviously kept in pristine condition. Discus can't tolerate less.

[Jim Powers]

The goldfish tank option is something that probably needs to be explored thoroughly with someone who has actually kept hillstreams and goldfish together. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't hillstreams often sold as cold water algae eaters in the UK? Also, remember that the first recorded breeding of chenis occurred in a goldfish tank in the UK.
That said, even if it works under certain conditions, we shouldn't encourage that over setting up a proper river tank.
By the way, what kind of hillstreams are being kept with Discus, Shari?

[shari]

Well, my memory is a bit off, as usual (but it was a while ago). They were being kept (not sure if he still has them) by an angelfish breeder who posted on the forum I visit there. Scroll down the thread and you'll see a fat looking hillstream on the glass in one of his pics.

http://www.angelfish.net/yabbse/index.p ... 0#msg42760

He called them 'violin sucker fishes'.

[Jim Powers]

"Violin sucker fish" ? I've never heard that one.
That looks like a beaufortia to me.
Nice angel fish, too. But the two just don't seem to fit together.
I noticed that the pic was from late 2004. It would be interesting to see if the beaufortia are still alive. I bet that their lifespan is considerably shorter under such conditions, even if they eat well.

By the way, when are we going to get to see this Fact Sheet , Martin & mikev?

[mikev]

A few comments (more later)

By the way, when are we going to get to see this Fact Sheet , Martin & mikev?

I assume when we are given a permission to use the "Brought to you by LOL" line -- no reply yet -- ... however, I don't see any reasons why I cannot put "DRAFT" over the flier and email to you or anyone else on the thread who wants it? Martin, would this be ok?

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On Hillstreams and Discus: I was told that some of the Gastros I've been asking about ended up in a Discus tank, and the person had other Gastros there for a year or more. So this actually may be a workable option *for very few people who are seriously into Discus*. I can possibly get some more details.

On Hillstreams and Barbs: Gary, which Barbs? -- very curious myself, and if these are common Barbs, they should be mentioned.

IMHO, Hillstreams and GF is something to investigate a little more. I see one additional problem with GF: they poop alot and the tank will require lots of cleaning. I also have a feeling that some fancier GF like telescopes may be a better choice: they are less food-crazy than more normal looking GF. If I were considering a GF/Hillstream tank, the very first thing I'd do would be to Google on "Dwarf Goldfish"...hmm..let me try...something does come out
http://www.aquaria.info/index.php?name= ... 5&start=15
Dwarf Telescopes, Dwarf Moors,... ??? I think this is very much worth exploring. Now, I also know someone whose GF keeps a GF tank with Gastros. I can ask for more details.

.....


OFT:

By the way, that's good news about one of your SpA eating bloodworms. I'm sure they will all be eating them before long.

Thank you. I'm keep my fingers crossed. This was one of the smallest fish who did -- I still did not see the big one eating anything.

[Martin Thoene]

The ideal environmental requirements for Discus and Hillstream Loaches could hardly be more different. Really good fishkeepers are sometimes quite capable of getting away with things that the "average" ones might not. It's still working outside the envelope though and can hardly be considered good fish husbandry.
Look at it the other way. Go on a Discus specialized forum and say that you are succcesfully keeping Discus in a tank kept at 71F with two honkin' big powerheads blowing them all over the place and see what reactions you get.

If you're trying to provide basic requirements info you should walk a fine line and not allow for deviation. Otherwize it's a free-for-all of interpretation like now which makes it a waste of time.

Martin.

[mikev]

IMHO, the Discus option should be dropped in all cases. This is not a common or simple solution and even if someone can make it work, it is of no value to most people.
But the barb option, or a small gf option are really worth investigation. At the very least because I've never seen appropriate Danios on sale around here, and WCMM's are not available all the time, so the more dither options the better.

(He-heh: what about going to a Discus forum and asking if one can use Discus as a dither fish for hillstreams? This might be fun...)

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A Question on Trade Names: what is the HK butterfly usually? I just saw a few in another store---quite unhappy in a crowded tropical tank---and they looked to me like Pseudogastros...is it safe to assume they are?

[Martin Thoene]

"Hong Kong Butterfly" are usually Beaufortia kweichowensis



Martin.

[mikev]

Martin,

Thanks. Certainly not this. They looked a lot like my SpC, same colors, normal loach siluette when sitting on the ground, even the red rim on the dorsal fin of at least one (hard too see, the water was dirty). I'll go back the moment I have the new tank finally ready...

I really hate tradenames now....