Skinny Disease? Please advise.

[Tad]

While I usually enjoy just browsing everyone elses' posts and gain my knowledge there and would rather not bother people by asking questions--and even though I see a lot of posts about "skinny disease"--I am asking for help so I don't confuse things and kill all of my fish.

I have a 55 gallon tank with 6 clown loaches, 2 yo-yos, 1 botia robusta, 11 cardinals, 3 siamese flying foxes, and 1 large plecostomus. I have had cases of fish tuberculosis in the past--I had a couple of the affected fish dianosed at my favorite fish store (Preuss in Lansing) under a microscope. I was told there was nothing to do for the disease and that once it was in my tank it would remain there forever (or I assume the tank would be a carrier--unless I tore down everything, bleached it all, and re-stocked with brand new fish). So--I try to keep the water as "healthy" as possible to prevent any stress on any fish and reduce the chance that anyone comes down with the tuberculosis.

The cardinals were the last to be added at least couple of years ago.

I have had these clowns for a few years--4,5 maybe more. I have had the yo-yos longer, and the botia robusta much longer.

My problem is that one of the clowns just hasn't grown as fast as the others--I got them all from the same store within 2 weeks of each other. He has grown--but just not as much as the others. Now I am beginning to think that he has this "skinny disease" that I read about in this forum. He is still eating and swimming around. But--it seems like his bones are beginning to show. I will attach pictures.


Him alone.


Him with his siblings to compare size.

Through the years, I have always noticed that he was different from the rest because one of his stripes doesn't go completely around him. The other fish aren't mean to him--he is just not always the first fish picked to play team games if you know what I mean.

What I need help with is--- do I set up a hospital tank just for this guy? or do I treat the entire tank? Do I need a full 10 gallons for him or can I fill the tank part way (I have an empty cracked tank)? I am assuming that Levamisole is the recommended treatment. I will have to find out if I can even get that--and make the drive. Maybe my local Tractor Supply has this in a mammal (farm animal) form--could I use this? What do I look for? And I need to know everything about how to treat and change water -- etc. I did read over Shari's article--but my head is spinning--too much brain power is needed for my real job and my kids.
Of course--all of this is assuming that anyone thinks that this fish has the skinny disease. All the fish started at the same size but he just hasn't grown as fast--but he still eats.

Thanks and sorry to ask a redundant question.

[Bitey]

I would disagree with the fish store's conclusion. Many people here have treated the disease successfully. As someone with a microbiology background, I'd say that it's generally futile to try to sterilze and restock a tank. If you just treat the affected fish and keep water quality high, the fish will probably never relapse.

A few years ago, I bought a skinny loach that had obviously been suffering from this disease for several years. It was long but skinny and its previous owner obviously did not do anything about it. I took it home, treated it, and it plumped up within a few weeks and is now one of my biggest loaches.

I did not use levamisole on that loach but I've found that mail order is your best bet. I've good experiences with valleyvet and bad experiences with labriarvet as far as shipping on time and notifying me of out of stock items. If it's something you need quickly, I'd call and make sure it's in stock and will ship immediately.

Your fish definitely looks skinny.

[Tad]

Thanks Bitey-
So it is possible to treat tuberculosis? If anyone happens to show signs of it--should I treat the tank or just the individuals? What is recommend for treatment?

I plan to get a new tank--much bigger--but I have yet to decide on what I want and I have to refinish the floor in the room where it will eventually go. I am trying to learn about sumps and other filtration to use before I decide. But most definitely the fish from the present tank will go into the new tank so I assume tuberculosis will always be an issue to watch for.

Ah--so skinny loaches can have this for years? I watched him again and he as long as some of the others--but definitely skinnier.

What did you use to treat your skinny loach?
Thanks!

[KLKelly]

Edited post: Some people on another forum (GAB) take their fish to an aquatic vet. Here is the thread on their diagnosis of fish TB. There is some talk to UV sterilizers killing freefloating bacteria and how to disinfect - using alchohol instead of bleach.

How did they diagnose fish TB with a microscope at the store. On the GAB forum the aquatic vet did a necropsy and had to send out tissues to get a diagnosis of fish tb.

I hope it isn't TB - I think it would be diffiucult to treat. If you suspect it is try and avoid cross contaminating any other tanks you have.

If anyones interested - here is the link to the tb post I've mentioned: http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t ... ia&start=0

Another person on the forum had her fish necropsied and it confirmed TB also - here is that thread: http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t ... cobacteria

[Tad]

Thanks KLKelly--
At the fish store--I know a couple of different guys with impressive sounding degrees looked at the two different fish (at least a year apart)--the fish were dead or near dead when I brought them in and I know they scraped a bit off of their scales or flesh or whatever (I didn't watch too closely--I was just too sad and scared for the other remaining fish) and looked at that under the microscope. I am not sure if they used any staining or anything.
I doubt that my loach has TB yet--he has been thinner than the others for a while--but it has only been this week that I noticed his boney appearance. I don't see any lesions on him either.
Thanks--

[chefkeith]

I've been wanting to visit Preuss Pets for a few years now. I've heard great things about that place. It's a few hours away from my home though, so if I go I definately want to get a bunch of fish.

For internal parasites,
You can try Prazipro also. Treat the main tank. One of my clowns fattened up nicely after a treatment with Prazipro.

An easy way to get levamisole is to order it off the net.
Try froogle-
http://www.google.com/products?q=Levami ... tnG=Search

I got my levamisole from-
http://www.qcsupply.com/Products/2732.aspx

[crazy loaches]

Thanks for that link. I went ahead and finally ordered some myself.

The last group of 3 Clowns I bought (about 6 months ago) look fine and healthy when I bought them... but after a couple months one showed signs of getting skinny. I procrastinated and never got anything to treat it with. Just a short while ago it passed away. So in all, probably less than five months from healthy looking until wasting away to nothing. Wish I had got this just a tad bit sooner

[Tad]

ChefKeith--Preuss Pets is awesome--I liked it before they made the move -- but the store is much larger since the move last year. If you haven't checked out their web it is here-- http://www.preusspets.com/ I have also seen owner Rick Preuss scattered all over the web.
I have heard that there is a great fish store over towards your way but I haven't made the drive or figured out which store it is--I have a friend in Big Rapids that makes the drive regularly though.

So--which should I use--Prazipro or levamisole? Treat the 55 gallon tank? I just don't want to harm any other fish. But I also don't want anyone else to come down with this. Here I thought this guy was just the runt. So--is skinny disease an internal parasite?

Thanks--

[chefkeith]

Being skinny can be anything. Skinny is just a symptom and is not a disease itself. Skinny disease is mostly just an overused undiagnosed term used for skinny fish.

Prazipro and Levamisole treat for different kinds of worms. I'd give them both a try if you're unsure of what's wrong. They are both fairly safe to use in your main tanks with the correct dosage size. So yes, treat the 55 gallon tank and all your fish. You can find Prazipro at most LFS's. I'd probably try that 1st. Then move to Levamisole just to be sure nothing is lingering internally.

I had a skinny clown that I treated several times with prazi and levamisole, but that didn't help much. The main problem was that the fish was a very picky eater. On it's final way out, it was having bacterial and fungus problems. Antibiotics didn't help either. The fish just wouldn't eat. So I had to euthenize.

The best fish stores around my area that I've been to are Moby Dicks and Aquatic Discoveries. I hear Kee's Aquaria is real good too.

I wish Preuss Pets website had a stocking list. Do you know what types of loaches they usually have?

[Tad]

ChefKeith--At Preuss - I have gotten Kuhli loaches--both the striped and black ones--they even had a reverse colored Kuhli show up once--way cool. They regularly have clown loaches. I have gotten Yo-yo's and my botia robusta came from there. I know they have more--those are just the ones that catch my eye. Before making the drive--if I were you--I would call ahead and ask what they have. The last couple of times I was there -- I found slim pickings for the fish I like. That could be because of the recent move though. They do put every new fish into quarantine so someone should be able to give you an idea of what they will have in the future if you call and they are low in selection. I, too, wish that they had a stock list online--they do list their kittens available.

So--can I use both of those medications at the same time--or are you recommending using Prazipro first for the course and then if I don't notice much change use Levamisole? Anywhere I go to buy this would be a drive so if I found them both--I would buy both if recommended. I assume that dosage is listed on the label for Prazipro. Is this one of those medications like the "ick" medicines that recommend half-dose for loaches?

So far--this clown is one of the best eaters of the bunch--he always tries everything. I tried watermelon last week (after reading Emma's post--I think it was her)--he was the first one to try and keep trying--my fish didn't like melon much. So this "skinny" stuff has got to be something else wrong because he does like to eat.

Thanks!

[chefkeith]

If he's eating alot, then it's probably an internal parasite. If he's not eating, then it's probably bacterial, fungal, from not eating, or all of the above.

I'd wouldn't mix both meds at the same time. I'm not sure of the results. Only mix meds if there is documentation on the label that that say's it's OK to do so.

If you get fish often and have a considerable investment in your fish then having both Prazi and Levamisole on the shelf would be a great idea.
I got them both. A bottle Levamisole HCl Pig Wormer goes a long long way and should last years.
Prazipro you treat at full dosage according to the instructions on the bottle.

If you ever get new fish again, it's good practice to treat them for external and internal parasites in a quarantine tank before moving them to the main tanks.

[Tad]

Thanks chefkeith--
I am definitely calling around this morning to find both of those medications. Hopefully, I will find both locally (within 40 miles) and can start treating with the Prazipro first then the Levamisole for good measure. I do put any new fish in a quarantine tank for at least 2 weeks--but I have never treated any for anything--thanks for the info.

I remember seeing a few tankfuls of Chain Loaches or Botia sidthimunki and some Polka Dot Loaches or Botia kubotai at Preuss one time. I have no room in my tanks so I happily watched them in the store for a bit. I have seen Dojos there quite a few times--and in the new store location. Oh and Skunk Loaches or something that looked like them. Wouldn't it be great if they had them all at the same time? I bet they will get back to that with them having a larger store now. A few years ago--I took a dozen young male Kribensis to them and those fish all found new homes within a couple of days. (for some reason--I don't think he quaratined them--but he knew my tank dynamics too)

Thanks again--

[Tad]

I went to Preuss today--picked up some Prazipro and chatted with Fred (one of the main disease expert guys) and showed him the pictures of my fish.

So--I changed about 30 gallons of water (RO treated with Seachem Equilibrium, Acid Buffer, & Akaline Buffer to kh 4 & gh 6)--then I treated with 2 3/4 teaspoons prazipro. I was told to leave the tank for 3-4 days and then change 50% water and retreat -- then wait 5 days and do another 50% water change and put the carbon back in. The bottle says, "A single treatment lasting 5-7 days is normally sufficient. Retreat as necessary, but no more than once every 3-5 days." Sounds about right?

I gotta tell ya--Fred warned me about his allergic reaction--but told me that no one else he has heard of has had any problems -- but I got a drop of this on the palm of my hand while trying to get the seal off the bottle-- gosh it burns! And it left a mark--still there 3 hours later. I washed with lots of soap not a second after it happened too. I guess I do need to use gloves to clean the tank now.

So--I also found Levamisole Hydrochloride at a local Tractor Supply. I did not purchase it yet as I am not sure if it has harmful inert ingredients. What should I look for? This is the link to the product-- http://www.durvet.com/prods/LEVAMISOLE_ ... Sheet.html
The warning on the label kind of scares me -- "Warning--do not administer within 72 hours of slaughter for food". Do other Levamisole products carry this warning?

I guess I figure if this prazipro doesn't help the fish--he will be dead by the time treatment is done. If he is not dead--I will treat with Levamisole then.

ChefKeith--the loaches that I saw and can remember at Preuss today were--Golden Dojos, Yo-yos, Clown Loaches, Skunk loaches, Zebra Loach (Botia striata), Botia kubotai, Botia sidthimunki, a tank said "Kuhli loaches" but I think they were hiding, I do believe I saw "Botia dario" on and in a tank also but don't quote me on that, and I did see Chinese Hillstream Loaches. That is all I can remember. Oh--and I did read your threads about your battles with skinny loaches--in one you mention your cat getting sick--how is the cat now? My cat is 17 years old and has been diagnosed with renal failure for a couple of years now--we have it under control with foods from the vet. Just wondering what you did for your cat.

Thanks--

[chefkeith]

Wow. They got lots' of loaches. Thanks.

That's the same Levamisole HCl that I use, it just has a different label.
Here's a link to the Levamisole Calculator to help with the dosage size-
http://www.geocities.com/chefkeithallen/Levamisole.html

I think I've had some allergic reactions to Prazipro too. The dosage sounds good.

The cat has been about the same. She's been eating alot, but not gaining much weight.

[Tad]

Does the kitty have renal failure like so many of the cats who ate the tainted food did? (tainted ha! poisoned is more like it) Are you feeding her a special diet?

Now I feel better about buying the Levamisole HCl. Thanks for making up that dosage calculator--I noticed that a few days ago--plus Shari's method of cutting up 1/4 teaspoon. If I did that--the neighbors would really start talking--I think I will do it outside in plain view and make them all wonder what I am up to. Seriously though--by your dosage calculator--I would need just shy of 1/8 teaspoon of the powder--correct?

Oh--and Preuss' stock -- it is not just a couple here or there--there are quite a few fish in the tanks. Good for me because I am a sucker for the lone fish who needs a home--and since I am having problems right now--no new fish for my house. That is how I ended up with a lone botia robusta--the old crabby man in the tank.

Thanks for your help!