R.I. P. FLIPPER!(updated water test)

[LoachOrgy]

thanks mike. yes this may be what it is. it appears as a milky substance flaking off the skin. but the strange thing was that it was coming out of the loaches rectal area.



thanks guys flipper is looking much better now. i almost had a heart attack.


flipper is my dolphin loach! poor guy he must hate me. i put a giant piece of cucumber and was busy for a few days before the 4th and didn't change the water. i came today to find the entire floor covered with pleco feces.





im sorry,

emma the water temp is at 78 degrees. the water has very high water flow and oxygen content as it appears. there are bubbles all over the tank. ammonia clear added.

ammonia after 1 water change. 1.2. ph 7.0. what it normally is.

temperature 78.

an ac70 cleaned with filter media kept as is. no cleaning.

added stresscoat, melafix, ammonia clear. will test ammonia again soon.

both fish are still relaxing and the gills are still moving rapidly. i placed them both in the current now in the separator tank. should i keep them in this or should i let them out and allow them to feel the oxygen with the current and the bubbles?

i was in shock. this is the first time i have had this happen in 10 years of keeping fish. i usually keep up with water changes and everything quite well. i hope its just ammonia spike and nothing more. they seem to be doing better.


well flipper is now being himself again. he is being lively and trying to get me to let him out of the separator.

[grizzlyone]

Take my advice and buy a big bottle of Seachem Prime.

It is your friend. Its about $10US for a decent size bottle.

It takes care of most everything and still lets you build your biofilter.


Kevin

[Diana]

Test the tap water for Ammonia.
If your water company uses Chloramine you might test a low level of Ammonia, and your dechlorinator should be labeled in such a way that indicates it will neutralize this small amount of ammonia.

Check the brand name and active ingredients in the Ammonia test kit you have and the dechlorinator, and the Ammonia neutralizing product. Go to each of their web sites.

Some Ammonia tests will still test positive for Ammonia after the Ammonia neutralizer has done its job. You might think there is Ammonia in the tank (there is) but it has been locked up by the neutralizer, so is not a problem.
Here is the tricky part: You might not be able to tell when MORE ammonia enters (?) the water, and whether it is or is not locked up by by the ammonia neutralizer.

I would continue the water changes, perhaps 25% AM and 25% PM, daily, until the Ammonia test shows only the amount of ammonia that is coming in with the chloramine (if applicable)
Add as many live plants as you can to the tank. Floaters like Anacharis, Hornwort and such are easy to add, Wisteria and similar fast growing plants will remove a lot of Ammonia from the water.
Continue vacuuming the gravel. There may be something decomposing under there that is contributing to the rise in Ammonia. Vacuum under logs, caves and ceramic mer-people, too.
Add zeolite to the filter to remove ammonia, but remember that the nitrifying bacteria will need some ammonia to re-populate, so wean the tank off the zeolite as soon as you see some hint that the nitrifying bacteria are making a come-back.

[LoachOrgy]

i previously tested the tapwater and it usually has no ammonia. or very little from the tests i have done.

the sand ends up trapping gunk under it and builds this ammonia i believe. i think i might get rid of the sand next tank.

thanks for your help the information was really good. I see them both playing and they seem more lively. all the other fish seem to be doing good. i think next time, i will lay off feeding that pleco. hes getting so big i have to get rid of him already. he pooped everywhere and it really covered the entire floor. i also find the loaches take the hikari wafers to thier hiding spots and eat a bit of it and let the rest sit and breakdown. sometimes it falls in hard to reach places. i think i will do away with all this small ornament next tank so that i can see the loaches more. i will just make the openings very big and spacy so that they won't be able to trap so much gunk.


i vaccumed the tank about 4 times already. all tank ornament has been cleaned as well. this includes inner cleaning. there are live plants in the tank. only java and anubias fern. not much else. the loaches tear up all other plants so bad that the debris itself is like a daily cleaning maintenance. so i only have very dense plants in there now.

[LoachOrgy]

Well sad to say, but flipper died tonight. I just checked him at 1:30. I was up with him all night and last I checked was about an hour ago and he was swimming and playing with the upside down cat. well I am going to give him till morning and if hes still not moving, RIP!

[LoachOrgy]

the last ammonia test was 1.0. its still bad but better than before. i put a bit higher dose than requested with the medication. it said that double dosing was ok. it also said it reads with most ammonia tests. however, when i read some of the statements above. i believe i will try another water change in the morning before work. even the upside down cat is having major problems. i let him out of the separator. he is so weak he barely can push himself in the current. hes in a good spot with lots of bubbbles. i hope this is good enough for him. i think it will allow him more oxygen being out of the separator rather than in it.

[mikev]

Very sorry, LO

How large was the fellow?

[Graeme Robson]

My condolences

[Tinman]

[LoachOrgy]

Rip upside down catfish.

he was only 2.5" long. had him since the beginning of this year i believe.

everyone else seemed fine this morning. but now the other upside down cat has no friend and i am sure the other loaches were looking for flipper. poor guys!

[grizzlyone]

LoachOrgy:

I guess nobody listens, but I'd be willing to bet that at least some of your problems were caused by the ammonia levels that you saw. I hate to be saying this after your loss and I'm very sorry about your guys, but if there is a chance of preventing something like this, I'll take the risk of being thought heartless.


I'll say it again and maybe I sound like a shill for Seachem, but with their Prime around, you should never, never, ever have any problems with any of the big 4, ammonia, chlorine, nitrate, and nitrates. Also, if any of these get up to higher levels, then they stress and weaken the fish for other opportunistic problems like Ick, parasitical, bacterial, fungal and other toxins.

I'm not a big fan of chemicals, and even less a fan of chemicals that mess with the normal bacterial process. Instead of removing the problem, it just converts it chemically to a non-toxic for that your normal bacteria can munch on happily (and so can your plants).

I've lost fish before, sometimes for no reason, but at the very least I know that its not due to a buildup of any one of those 4.


I use it when I have a problem (like a dead fish) and I also use it in recommended doses for maintenance every week. Like my Jewish/Lutheran grandmother used to say "It can't hurt".

It also is one of the few that preserves my biofilter and in cases where the biofilter cycle gets broken, it gives the cycle a chance to recover without killing my fish.


At the risk of sounding like a shill, I'll say it again. Prime, Prime, Prime!

I'm like the poster child for preparedness. I have on hand, several purigen pouches (also from Seachem) that remove the same things but also remove them from being converted by your bacteria. I have, fungal, bacterial and parasite medicines. I have phosphate pads stuck in a drawer



I've lost fish and I mourn their passing, but I don't feel as bad if I've done everything I possibly could to keep them alive.

Maybe I should write up a article that could be used as a sticky....



Kevin

[tariesindanrie]

LO, so sorry for your loss

Grizzlyone is right about the Prime- the stuff smells like crap, but it's affordable, you don't have to use a lot, and it won't mess up everything else you have going right. My only other advice that wasn't covered would be to get a Ph test kit if you don't have one- I've lost fish when the Ph was suddenly off due to water change- also...when you put cukes or zucchini in...unless you grow them yourself or buy them organic, they almost certainly have a waxy coating applied to the outer skin which can taint your water- good idea to skin them before feeding if you're not sure. Learned that one the hard way.

Kate

[LoachOrgy]

grizzly, i think it was an ammonia burn. i have never had this happen. i usually change the water quite often. i missed my first one in years. it was a busy time it sux. i have water primer but i need to keep ammonia neutralizer around handy. Its been 10 years and this is my first incidence of this happening. so I think I have done a good job maintaining the tanks so far. i do bi weekly water changes. but i missed them this week.

I will pickup a bottle when i go to the lfs next. Ill stock up on all these products. thanks for the tips.

the bio filter in the ac wasn't removed. it was rinsed with tank water.

I have a ph test kit. I did prime the water before hand. The buildup I believe was a cucumber or possibly the hikari wafers that get stuck in tight spots. . I was busy this entire week and missed the water change. Its sad. but it could have been prevented. the ph is usually around 7.0. i tested it yesterday. it was 7.0. the tap was 7.0

i remove all skin from cucumber with a knife so its all flesh.

[grizzlyone]

I'm just saying that ammonia is only one factor.

Also, depending on what you use, it may take the ammonia out of the cycle which will mess with your biofilter.

$10 for a 500ml bottle of Prime will take care of Ammonia, Chlorine, Nitrate and Nitrates and will detoxify and still let your biofilter work like its supposed to.....I'm just saying....


Kevin

[mikev]

LO, it is very strange that a single missed water change would lead to an Ammonia spike. You may want to investigate WHY did this happen exactly. A nitrate increase is usually all that would happen.


grizzlyone, I'm all for Prime and advocated it many times here and elsewhere. However, some of the claims about Prime are going overboard...

Also, if any of these get up to higher levels, then they stress and weaken the fish for other opportunistic problems like Ick, parasitical, bacterial, fungal and other toxins.

For example, Prime (or maintain good quality water in general) will not do anything about parasite prevention. These have nothing to do with the fish immune system or water quality and happily develop in the cleanest tank, as long as the parasite is present.

The other problem is the nitrAte claim

I'll say it again and maybe I sound like a shill for Seachem, but with their Prime around, you should never, never, ever have any problems with any of the big 4, ammonia, chlorine, nitrate, and nitrates.

nitrates are different from the other 3: nitrates are not toxic unless in a very large concentration, and converting them to anything else will still leave a large amount of now another chemical dissolved. nitrates are perhaps the safest form of any N in water...they can be removed with WC's and/or plants, but chemical conversion is meaningless here... I think the nitrate claim needs some serious validation.

I'm also deeply suspicious of the ammonia claim. Yes, Prime converts Ammonia to Ammonium (NH3 <-> NH4+), but the same conversion happens naturally with lower pH; at 6.0 Ammonia is not a big issue. If the pH is raised, Ammonium will convert back to Ammonia.

Finally, I'm not at all sure that regular use of Prime does any good. Dissolving any chemicals in water raises TDS and increases the stress, and in a smoothly running tank "Big 4" are reduced to the chlorine in tap. This can be handled with the cheapest/simplest dechlorinator, or even without one.

OTOH, A valid claim about Prime that can be added is the detox (binding) of metal ions.

I would not argue that as an emergency measure, Prime is essential to be on hand.