Clown Loach Death.... Why?

[rkc772]

I recently got into clown loaches and have been buying a lot.

In my recent order I has a lot of casualties.

I usually receive around 50-100 pcs of loaches around 5-6" in size. they are bagged in 5-10 pcs depending on the bag and box.

I open the bag, usually they are stressed out and move a lot and jumpy.

I pour them out on a bucket (like the white bucket you can buy at homedepot).

I drip them for acclimation. I notice in a few minutes (around 2-3 minutes). they are all lying down and starting to die. They have the spine on their mouth protruding.

This happens a lot when I put 2 bags of loaches in a bucket. Why are they dying and the spines are all protruding and I presume it is lethal to each other. They develop this sticky slimy coat that is like glue. only 25-35% max survive. am i doing something wrong. I drip them and acclimate them at at temp at 80F with normal tap water. nothing special on the water chemistry. all are cycled tanks... I need serious help before I kill tons of beautiful loaches again.

is their any way to avoid this?

[mikev]

Possible reason:
When you open the bag, pH rises and ammonia in the bag becomes deadly.

Solution:
Put a few drops of Prime into the shipping bag the moment you open it.

Additionally:
Add an air bubbler to the acclimation bucket. Add a little salt: the symptoms are consistent with nitrite poisoning too.

hth

[rkc772]

i put an air stone on the bucket. what type of prime.. is this the amquel? and how much salt would you suggest?

[mikev]

Prime (Seachem) not Amquel. Amquel is a dangerous product.

Salt: very little, just a pinch. Prime will neutralize nitrites anyway, but you to reverse the poisoning a bit too.

You may also want to also check all the parameters of the water in the bag.

[rkc772]

okey. sounds good... any other way to avoid this.. i will buy the prime by seachem. is their any type of medicine i should avoid just for my knowledge. the spine that are protruding.. are these because of them fighting?

[lf11casey]

Amquel is a dangerous product.

Why is Amquel dangerous? I used to use it and had no problem.

[mikev]

Amquel is a dangerous product.

Why is Amquel dangerous? I used to use it and had no problem.

Unlike Prime, it may alter pH. You don't want this effect to be added to the acclimation of already stressed animals.

(and since I don't like anyone playing with my pH, I would not use it myself in any situation).

the spine that are protruding.. are these because of them fighting?

No, most likely because of them being stressed to death. You can reduce stress a bit by carrying out the acclimation with very little light.

[rkc772]

i need to try prime. can this be applicable to any fish too? just want my fish to be alive and well. the death comes mostly from loaches... some fish are not as sensitive i would say...

by the way.. the spine they have... if they poke each other already.. can it still be cured before they die on me?

[grizzlyone]

Ok, here's the blurb from the seachem website:

Prime™ is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime™ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels.Prime™ also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime™ is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime™ will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.


Here's my experience. It works. I use it religiously. When I use it, the only other thing I really have to worry about is PH and phosphates. You only have to use a little. I use it when I add water since it will get rid of the chlorine as well as heavy metals.

Prime is good. Its nice to have if you have an ammonia spike, but again, if you use it in maintenance dose, you never have a toxic ammonia spike, because it it detoxifies it and doesn't remove it like other ways. That way it doesn't kill your biofilter for lack of ammonia to convert.

Kevin

[rkc772]

i need to order that prime for sure.... thank you for the advise. hope this time the loaches will be fine.

[mikev]

by the way.. the spine they have... if they poke each other already.. can it still be cured before they die on me?

I greatly doubt they die from poking each other. It seems they die because of improper shipping: too much fish in too little water --> high ammonia. 5"-6" clown loaches are already serious waste producers.

What I've suggested may somewhat improve the survival rate, but the real solution is likely to spend a little more money and ship fewer animals in more water, with some ammonia absorbent added by the exporter.

[mikev]

Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them

I really love this phrase.

I think Seachem may be the best company out there overall, but this is pathetic...

[rkc772]

they put ammonia absorbers actually. when i put two bags in one bucket... they start poking at each other.. most of the dead ones have the spine on their face protruding.

any suggestion to avoid their spine to poke each other? it seems to be one of the reasons also for the death that happens.

[Diana]

Separate the fish into fewer fish per bucket: do not combine already stressed fish from several bags into one bucket.

[mikev]

they put ammonia absorbers actually. when i put two bags in one bucket... they start poking at each other.. most of the dead ones have the spine on their face protruding.

Yet again, they don't poke at each other. You see the spines, not wounds.

And indeed do not combine bags. It is stress, as Diana mentioned, but it also can be much worse: if the bags have different water, including different ammonia levels, it also may lead to a TDS shock.