Came back with more than bloodworms...

[mikev]

Mike, you said the one that was inactive and later died had a bacterial infection. Is that something I should treat for just in case in your opinion?
I'm really wishing I could have quarantined. I just had a feeling... What a bummer.

IMHO, my case is not applicable to you. I was simply saying that inactivity is usually a sign of some disease, but it can be absolutely anything: a bacterial infection, a gill problem (like ich in gills), oxygen deprivation, or the late stage of serious internal parasite disease.........

In my case it was a bacterial infection in lymph nodes, maracyn did not do anything good, TC killed the bacteria all right, but the loach was already so far gone that it died a couple of days later anyway. I've seen something very similar with gf once, but this is not a common disease.

Anyway, I'd say don't treat for bacteria now. You have no evidence that this is a problem, it is most likely not, and you don't want to risk your cycling on top of the ich problem.---you have no tank to evacuate to in he worst case.

So the higher temp is pretty important?

Yes. It speeds up the ich life cycle and makes the meds (and salt) do their jobs faster. Read the LL faq on Ich on TFF, or any other paper on ich if you want to see why. It makes the meds work better even if the med label says that temp raise is not needed (like with my IchGuard).

I'm really wishing I could have quarantined. I just had a feeling... What a bummer.

What was done, was done. Ich can be beaten, if you do things right now.

What is the situation now? Ich signs, fish behavior, meds applied? Remember to keep checking your Odessa's fins/tail, ich would be very visible on them.

Good luck.

[TammyLiz]

The odessas are looking and acting fine. The gouramis look fat and happy, too. They are loving those frozen bloodworms I'm feeding the loaches. Tonight's feeding went well and everything happily ate except the kubotai. He just layed in the entrance to one of the coconut shells. The other excited loaches were bumping into him on occasion as if to say "hey, there's food", but he didn't pay them any mind. It looks like he's breathing a little fast, too. Just in case he has an internal bacterial infection, I'm considering adding some pimafix and/or melafix. A good idea?

I witnessed a little spat between two of the yoyos over a piece of bloodworm. It was pretty funny, neither was willing to back down until it had been consumed by who knows which one. They were flipping around all over the tank. At first I thought they were just locking mouths but there was a worm there at second glance. I could swear they have already grown since I brought them home. I have really been enjoying the group. Its much better than having just two.

[mikev]

I'm considering adding some pimafix and/or melafix. A good idea?

Probably not. Firstly, they will not do anything for bacterial infections (which you may or may not have); secondly, there seems to be an incompatibility between pimafix and loaches (search this forum for pimafix). And I'm not sure you want to put Maracyn's into the main tank based on an unconfirmed suspicion of a bacterial infection.

Since you don't have a Q-tank, a TC bath in a bucket is an option--if you have *some* evidence it is bacterial.

What is your Ich situation?

-------------------------

As for yoyo's, make sure to make pictures, it will be too late in a week -- they grow fast. Yes, pulling a worm from each other mouth seems to be their kind of fun. Not for long: in two weeks they will be big enough to quickly gulp a worm, so enjoy watching it while you can.

[TammyLiz]

OK, no pimafix.

TC, hmm...I'm not sure what this is but I am guessing you mean tetracycline? What kind of dosing would I use for a bath and how long?

Ich: I never saw it on anything but the kubotai and he is in the coconut shell cave today, which I have to look through some plants to see, so I can't tell if it has changed on him.

I did take pictures of the yoyos the first day, but haven't bothered to look at how they turned out.

[mikev]

OK, no pimafix.

TC, hmm...I'm not sure what this is but I am guessing you mean tetracycline? What kind of dosing would I use for a bath and how long?

I did this on double dosage for an hour. TC does hurt the fish (but may hurt the biofilter) and is capable of killing much of bacteria pretty quickly (if it is not resistant, of course). This is actually what I did with my kubotai, and bacterial signs were gone very quickly. In another case, this was successful.

Again, I'm not suggesting you do this! This is really an emergency measure, and you don't know what the problem is. But if the fish does look bad, this is one thing to try, of course.

Ich: I never saw it on anything but the kubotai and he is in the coconut shell cave today, which I have to look through some plants to see, so I can't tell if it has changed on him.

Ich is an infection that affects all fish and the tank. If you see no signs on any fish, you still have to continue treating for a few days, because there may be dormant ich in the water, ground, or active ich in the gills.

I did take pictures of the yoyos the first day, but haven't bothered to look at how they turned out.

I'm very sorry I did not do it (back in January ... only). Your three are all "textbook" YOYO's or some alternative patterns?

[TammyLiz]

But if the fish does look bad, this is one thing to try, of course.

So would laying around, hiding, and not eating be something that "looks bad"?

Your three are all "textbook" YOYO's or some alternative patterns?

Actually, I got five yoyos. Two of them are a little larger and more silvery, I think. The other three look a teeny bit more golden. Maybe this difference will fade, maybe not.
One of them doesn't have the "o"s, only "y"s with white space in between. I'm not sure if this will stick or not either.

[mikev]

But if the fish does look bad, this is one thing to try, of course.

So would laying around, hiding, and not eating be something that "looks bad"?

Is it laying around in the open or in the hiding place? 2nd would be perfectly normal, kubotais are not yoyo's, they need time to adjust. No eating is not good, try to drop a bloodworm next to it.

I really cannot give a good advice here, I also lost fish (two times) because of my hesitations on emergency procedures.

If it is bacterial, what I said is a good shot. Use the tank water, but then, after the treatment, just move the fish back -- throw away the water (so no TC goes into the tank).

If it is ich on gills, the emergency procedure is a salt bath (higher concentration than in the tank now, say the full dosage or higher). This will destroy some -- hopefully most -- of ich by osmotic pressure, and relieve gills enough so normal treatment can do the rest.

Which one is right -- if any -- I don't know. The answer would depend on how positive I am that it was ich, and I did not see the fish.

(You know, returning the fish may also be an option -- if the store would treat. It sounded like you have a good store there.)

Your three are all "textbook" YOYO's or some alternative patterns?

Actually, I got five yoyos.

Heh-heh. We are following the same road, it seems. 7 odessas + 1 false odessa, now 5 yoyos. You need 19 kuhlis next.

Two of them are a little larger and more silvery, I think. The other three look a teeny bit more golden. Maybe this difference will fade, maybe not.
One of them doesn't have the "o"s, only "y"s with white space in between. I'm not sure if this will stick or not either.

Let me see the last one sometimes. It seems like all yours have something like a YOYO pattern; in my case two have a very different non-YOYO pattern. These two are also far the fastest growing (so now are the largest), probably another (sub)species.

[TammyLiz]

(You know, returning the fish may also be an option -- if the store would treat. It sounded like you have a good store there.)

Actually, I doubt it. I've never seen them treat anything. They get interesting things in, but if they're sick, they die if not purchased. The one thing I did see them do is lower the water level in the weather loach tank. They must have had some jump.

Let me see the last one sometimes.

Here you go. This was taken the day I got them. Only "y"s, no "o"s.


Unfortunately, the kubotai was dead when I woke up this morning. I was going to pick up some tetracycline for a bath today, and was even considering setting up a quarantine for him since he seemed to have more than ich, but it's too late. I'm very bummed. He was pretty. Here is what he looked like:


Unfortunately, one picture is washed out and the other is out of focus, but they are the best I got.

[mikev]

(You know, returning the fish may also be an option -- if the store would treat. It sounded like you have a good store there.)

Actually, I doubt it. I've never seen them treat anything. They get interesting things in, but if they're sick, they die if not purchased. The one thing I did see them do is lower the water level in the weather loach tank. They must have had some jump.

I'm somewhat lucky in this respect, I can occassionally convince my lfs friend to take care of a particular fish. I returned one yoyo (was a near certain case of serious parasite problem) and he actually treated.

Let me see the last one sometimes.

Here you go. This was taken the day I got them. Only "y"s, no "o"s.

Ah, this is almost certainly a normal YOYO, the pattern will develop.

Here is a picture of two of mine (sorry for the bad quality, this was a month ago). The fellow on the left now looks like a normal YOYO; the fellow on the right is one of the two bigger ones, the pattern is different and still is today. This "other kind of yoyo's" seems to grow faster, has deeper bodies, and the pattern is less sharp,

Unfortunately, the kubotai was dead when I woke up this morning. I was going to pick up some tetracycline for a bath today, and was even considering setting up a quarantine for him since he seemed to have more than ich, but it's too late. I'm very bummed. He was pretty.

Almost certainly TC would have not helped. Ich is perfectly sufficient to kill a fish, and bacterial infections are really not that common. The likely reason I had mine was the gouramis, they do tend to develop external bacterial infections occassionally, and I lost kubotai soon after a gourami infection. (No more gouramis for me).

Yeap, the poor chap was pretty indeed. Very sorry for this. You should be able to find Kubotai's around before long (or get them by mail, they are available right now).

Don't stop treating for ich for a few more days, you still may have it around.