New Kubs + KUB/ROST/HIST/ALMORH Debate!

[mikev]

Hmmm.... there is another one here, clearly a relative of the top one. I'll try to get a good photo later.

Loachmom, could we see a bit more of this first loach...hopefully, both sides?

[loachmom]

I'll see what we can do, Mike.

I was a little disappointed when I read that B. rostrata can grow to 8". I was hoping for the small size of the kubotai. Oh well, he is very pretty.

P.S. there is another photo of the top fish on page 3.

[mikev]

Don't take the sizes published on LOL too seriously, there are lots of errors. I suspect that the max size for Kubotai and Rostrata are very similar (which would make sense if this is the same species).

[Mark in Vancouver]

Fishbase lists B. rostrata at a maximum of 20cm, which supposedly is a measurement taken from a wild specimen.

[loachmom]

Here's one more photo.

[mikev]

... and we don't know if the specimen was actually a Rostrata, given that the definitions have changed a lot. Given what Fishbase gives for Kubs and also separately for two species of Yoyo's it is hard to believe anything they say without some kind of outside confirmation....

And furthermore, we really don't know the max size for Kubotai to compare with, the species has not been around for too long....

[mikev]

OK, on these Rostrat-ish Kubotai's, it finally emerged from the tank depth:

Clearly my loach (suspected by Mark above) is quite different from yours. But here is the 3rd kind:



Again this is a 2.5" fish, so not a juv, the pattern is probably mostly defined. This guy has no horizontal line but has some kind of rudimentary dots, so again a Rostrat-ish variation. (Warning: image taken at a bad angle, the fish actually has quite a girth developed since March... I'll try to get a better photo.)

[Rubix]

loachmom yours appears to be a kubotai to me

i know nothing about breeding outside of mollies, platys, and danios... but is it possible that rostrata and kubotai could have interbred years ago?

[mikev]

My theory on these Rostratish Kubs:

Genetically, Kubs are very close to Striata. The way Striata's develop extra stripes is by dividing the old ones. It seems that these Kubs do exactly the same, except that the new stripes are not solid lines, but are built out of dashes and dots.

Look at loachmom's and mine together:



Both have 5 "Big" stripes (Is it always 5 anyway?). In loachmom's case, they are undergoing the first division. In my case, first division is completed, and they are doing the 2nd.

In other words, this is the same species, but I have a more advanced specimen (which *may* mean it is older or not). The chances are that if loachmom takes another photo in 6-12 months, it will show something very similar to mine....

I *think* I have an older photo of this loach somewhere on LOL, Emma commented on it before...will try to find it.

In comparison, here is a Rostrata from LOL index which is apparently on the same stage of development: 2nd division of the same 5 "BIG" stripes.




Whether the same mechanism works with type2/type3 Kubs is not clear, probably does.

but is it possible that rostrata and kubotai could have interbred years ago?

Jamie, Kottelat thinks that Rostrata is just a variation of Kubotai and so far we don't have a proof that he is wrong... If he is right, there should be intermediate variations...perhaps this is what type1 Kub is.

[Mark in Vancouver]

Emma has been super busy today, but I've asked her to weigh in on this thread.

It's funny how similar this thread is to some from the past. You may recall Cybermeez's documentation of the development of young Botiid species into histrionica and kubotai, and also the debate around whether B. almorhae is actually two species. I suspect that the new genetic data will reveal all shortly.

[mikev]

Thanks, Mark,

(Maybe it would be interesting to dig out the old threads...they were before my time.)

Two more comments to add to the above:

1. Type3 "Multidot" Kubs may simply be the result of one more division, which coincides with the change of body shape.

2. Given that this is my day off, I just went to the store to look at Striata's... with about 50 animals one can find something relevant. One thing noticed that perhaps 3 of them had small dots/dashes where lines were supposed to form...but this is probably a temporary effect while a new line is still weak. The other was that one of the Striata's had connecting horizontal lines in a couple of places. I had to buy it so I can take a closer look later at home.

[cybermeez]

It's funny how similar this thread is to some from the past. You may recall Cybermeez's documentation of the development of young Botiid species into histrionica and kubotai, and also the debate around whether B. almorhae is actually two species. I suspect that the new genetic data will reveal all shortly.

I was wondering when someone was going to mention that.

Botia kubotai - Development of Markings During Growth

[mikev]

Rrright, now I remember this. You have the beginning of the development nicely documented, it certainly links up with what is happening next.

Totally OFT: I wonder a little about

Both fish died in late spring 2006 when an unknown disease claimed their lives and that of several other loaches with which they shared a 150 gallon tank.

since we are on the same water system...could it be the thing I've encountered here? What were the symptoms if any?

----

PS. This is the Striata with connections:



I hope I bought it...

[Emma Turner]

Mark pointed me in the direction of this thread, so I will attempt to wade through and help as best I can!

First off, Dr Kottelat does not consider Botia rostrata to be synonymous with B. kubotai. He actually considers B. rostrata to be synonymous with B. almorhae (for more detail, see the paper that described B. kubotai and revises the classification of other Botiine species).

Juvenile Botia rostrata have the typical twin-banded pattern, which, as the fish matures, turns into a net-like reticulated pattern. Botia almorhae start off with the typical 'YoYo' markings, and again, as this species matures, the pattern reticulates.

From what I have seen, all Botia rostrata tend to be snub-faced (or round faced, whatever you like to call it) whereas B. almorhae are longer in the face. Regional variants of the same species? I don't know. In my experience, their behaviour differs quite significantly with B. rostrata being much friendlier than B. almorhae.

I have seen many variations in markings of B. kubotai and have some 'weirdos' in the display tank at work. Although juveniles can sometimes look similar to B. rostrata, you tend to be able to see small distinct 'flicks' of black along the lateral line in B. kubotai (not often present or so distinct in B. rostrata) that eventually become more prominent and join up. Most B. rostrata I've seen have been very slightly 'greyer' than your typical B. kubotai/histrionica too.

Has anyone compared their oddball specimens to the Botia sp. aff rostrata (another can of worms) in the species index? http://www.loaches.com/species-index/bo ... f-rostrata

All exports of B. rostrata currently come from India. Indeed, has anyone seen what the Chinese variants look like (is this what the picture on Fishbase depicts? That is not a 'typical Indian B. rostrata' for sure).

I know I have got pictures that I can add in to this thread, I'll try and find them - might have to be tomorrow, it's 3:30am here....

Emma

[cybermeez]

I'm not sure what caused the demise of the Kubs and some of their tank mates. They just turned up dead rather suddenly. Neat Striata...well it might be a striata. The photo is kinda blurry (is that a red nose I see?), but the pattern looks a lot more like Rostrata to me. How big is he?