Introduction and Tiger Questions?

[Stonecoloured]

Hi everyone,

I’m a long time lurker and thought I would say hello as I’ve come to a cross roads with my tanks. Firstly may I say thank you to you all for providing such a wonderful place for Loach-fanatics/holics to research and gain their daily fix. I’ve been keeping loaches – clown, yoyo, Pangio anguillaris and a mixture of Kuhli loaches for over 7 years.

I have set up, cycled and planted a very sparsely populated, but well filtered, 900 litre tank (Currently housing 3 Bristle noses and 5 clowns that can be moved to another tank if needed.) I now have a choice whether I go down the usual community tank set up or go for something a little more interesting.

After seeing Emma’s Tangle of Tigers (Syncrossus) I am very interested in them. Would it be possible to keep a reasonable sized shoal / tangle in my tank as the main tank floor fish? I have heard they can be aggressive / territorial, however I am thinking / hoping if I get a large enough shoal then the aggression may be dispersed around the group?

Please can someone give me some tips / pointers on how to go the best way about this? I am happy to add as much wood/stones/caves as needed but just want to know what I’m letting myself in for – are they as bad as people say – i.e. as bad as skunk / modesta loaches?

Many thanks,

[Mark in Vancouver]

Welcome to the forum. I'm guessing Emma is the one to weigh in on this subject, but Syncrossus species are aggressive - as opposed to can be aggressive. You have to consider this before you choose to keep them.

[Stonecoloured]

Hi Martin and thank you for the welcome and quick reply

In your experience what causes the aggression - i.e. lack of space / hiding places / hierarchy?

Also by aggression are we talking displays (similar to clowns pecking order) / fin ripping / dead fish?

Apologies for the questions I’m just trying to work out if they are a “don’t keep in the aquarium” fish or an “only keep in the aquarium if you do X,Y and Z” fish.

[Emma Turner]

Hi Stonecoloured - welcome to Loaches Online.

Your proposed tank would be excellent for keeping Syncrossus species as these are relatively large growing fish that require masses of hiding places & visual barriers, something which is achievable in a tank of such proportions. The visual barriers are of great importance so that if one loach fights/chases another out of it's territory and it flees, the aggressor cannot immediately set eyes upon it again and resume the argument (gives them time to settle down).

The clown loaches and bristlenoses will need rehoming though, the Syncrossus will be far too feisty for them. I would put their aggression level well up there with Skunks, probably a bit higher. In a spacious aquarium (such as yours) you will be able to keep some dither fish in there if desired. They will have to be fast-swimming, short-finned, and able to hold their own - many medium-sized species of barb (Puntius sp.) fit the bill and also enjoy the fast flow that the loaches will need.

I actually have an article on keeping Tiger Loaches due out in the next issue of Tropical World. A couple of months after publication, I will be able to add it to this site as it is a topic many people ask about.

Typical aggression level will depend on circumstances e.g. tank size, how many loaches of each type, maturity of the loaches, how many hiding spots/visual barriers etc etc. In confined spaces, they will easily kill tankmates that are placid and slow moving.

You want to be aiming to keep at least 5 of each of the Syncrossus species you choose, so that they can form a natural hierarchy. S. helodes by far and away seem to be the most aggressive of the Tiger Loach group, and some people choose to leave them out of their "Grrrr Community" as they often prove to be too much. But in a tank of your size, you may well be fine with these. Other loaches that can be kept with the Tigers (in big tanks) include Yasuhikotakia morleti, Y. eos and Y. modesta. Again, you'll be wanting at least 5 of whichever you go for.

Graeme would also be able to give you valueable input, but I don't think he's around at the moment.

Emma

[Stonecoloured]

Hi Emma,

Thank you for your detailed response, it has given me quite a bit to think about. I shall look out for your article in the next issue of Tropical World. I’ve got to say I’m concerned that their level of aggression is on par if not higher than Skunks.

You mention keeping at least 5 of each Syncrossus species I choose – would you recommend keeping several species or keeping a larger shoal of a single species in order to disperse aggression?

I have to admit the reason the tigers appealed was due to their colour and pattern variation. Having kept quite a few would you say their character is rewarding / interesting?

Many thanks for the help and advice,

[Emma Turner]

I would highly recommend a Grrrr Tank. You'll find that there will always be something of interest going on. 'Lively' bouts of behaviour will be coupled with a sudden desire to be best of friends and lounge about (like in the Tiger Tangle pic). But peace won't last for too long and it has to be said that Syncrossus species and their partners in crime do have some of the loudest 'clicks' which can sometimes sound like the glass is cracking.

I've always thought larger shoals of two or three species is much more natural than say two or three specimens of each of lots of species. But you have a larger than average tank there, so you should still be able to keep high numbers of several species.

Emma

[Vancmann]

Hi Stonecoloured, as stated by Emma, the tiger is up there in agression but a few clicks below the modesta and eos. I have kept Clowns with tigers in a couple tanks for over a decade and have never seen any conflicts between the clowns and Tigers (if anything, the tiger seems intimidated by the clown's size). Granted, the tanks were big and thre were numerous places to hide.

However, the problem I have seen on quite a few occasions were fierce battles between the Tiger with Modesta or tiger with eos. Initially, The tiger was younger but eventually grew longer than the modesta and eventually got to the point of not putting up with the bullying from the modesta. The battle went on/off for a few weeks until the modesta permanantly won dominance. After that, the modesta did not tolerate the tiger and would chase him away whenever the tiger was seen. The same with the eos. Both Eos and tiger went back and forth until the Eos won his terrority. They hated each other afterwards.

In summary, I would say the tiger was good with the clowns, stressed with the modesta and eos and hated/chased the yoyo, Kubotia, striada, Beauforti. The tiger will hurt slow and small fish and is agressive towards agressive loaches.

I had 3 tigers

[newshound]

Interesting...
I would have thought that a tiger would kick the s*&t out of an eos once it got much larger.
Ya got to give it to the eos...mean little suckers

[Vancmann]

Newshound, its even more interesting the behavior between the eos and the modesta. In the clicking/biting contest, the eos was a rapid firing maching gun while the tiger was a shotgun.

Stonecoloured, I think that these fish have a strong instinct and have some way of knowing when to fight and when to avoid a fight. Meaning, although clowns are "usually" friendly and not agressive, they can hold their own if need be. My tigers somehow knew this and instinctively did not want to be in bad terms with the clown clan so they avoided conflicts especially around feeding time when the tension could possibly lead to a fight. The tigers were already in bad terms with the alpha modesta as I stated earlier.

There are so many variables that can determine the outcome of the behavior of these fish in captive. The main ones I can think of now are:
1 Tank size (bigger is better).
2 Amount of available hiding spaces (the more the merrier).
3 Water condition and temperature (preferred well establish bio system with low or no nitrates and close to neutral PH-certainly buffered enough to prevent PH swings. I think you want 78-80 deg C for loaches mentioned).
4 Temperment of tankmates (ie very agressive tankmates can humble the mighty modesta where he seldom bullies anyone. On the other hand, too feeble of tankmates can make a tiger an effecient predator ).
5 Amount of tankmates ( less diversity, more of same species-5 is the magic min number with 3 the absolute minimum).

I have "usually" in quotes on the 3rd line because on LOL there are many people who have had loaches for a long time and I have read many different experiences from them so in some (very few) instances, clowns can be agressive. There are lots to learn here from Emma, Martin and many others!

[Stonecoloured]

Hello again,

Vancmann and Newshound thank you for your help and different experiences. That is one of the main reasons I have been frequenting LOL for a number of years as a lurker and researcher – the community feel and the “long serving” members.

It is interesting to hear that Tigers can get along with Clowns in some cases, I appreciate your use of “usually”.

I am going to put a lot more plants, wood and boulders in the tank to create more hidey holes and escape routes. Then I’m looking to buy another filter and / or a power head for water circulation. The tank currently has 2 Eheim Professional the current – then I am thinking of putting a shoal of Tigers in with the current 5 filters. Can someone recommend a good powerhead or two?

I know I might run into problems… I’m thinking that once I have the tank set up correctly I shall also run a spare “emergency” tank for if I need to move someone quickly. Once I’ve secured a shoal of Tigers and Q’ed them I shall rearrange the main tanks décor and introduce a shoal of Tigers in with the Clowns – The emergency tank is a backup for the clowns if everything doesn’t go well. At least then I can see if I can have Tigers and Clowns together (in my case) or if it’s just wishful thinking.

Apart from the Tigers being more Tiger-y than I expected can anyone see a flaw in my plan or give me any tips?

[Emma Turner]

I would highly recommend the Tunze Turbelle Stream powerheads, providing that you don't have any small fish that could be drawn in around the impeller cage. I've got a Tunze Turbelle Stream 6100 on my big clown loach tank, which pushes 12000 litres per hour. To say the fish enjoy swimming in its flow would be a major understatement! The downside is that they are very pricey, but they are worth the extra money IMO.

I know that people will have different opinions on this, but personally, there is no way I would attempt housing clown loaches in the same tank as a big group of Syncrossus species. It would be very unfair to the clowns, which are gentle giants and would come under a great deal of unneccessary stress.

Emma