some strange stuff going on in my tank...

[mikev]

Mark,

I'm puzzled. Deeply.

Where do you see any advice being given? Not talking about a "system of advice".

The post above is the description of what I see in my tank, to compare against the original Mark Janssen' post. Nothing else. Issues of loach classifications, medications, metals, stores etc might have appeared in other discussions, but I don't see their connection to an Odessa Barb/Loaches community tanks.

I am no expert, believe me. I would never laud my expertise above yours or any other fish keeper. But this last post broke my camel's back.

It's your tank - not fish in general.

I do fail to understand what you are trying to say. Of course I was describing my tank, was not this said clearly?

[shari2]

I'm puzzled. Deeply.

I'm not surprised. Perhaps I can help to clarify (though I truly doubt it).

It became obvious that one cannot use Odessa's with hillstreams as planned

By saying 'one cannot' this statement projects the suggestion of 'advice', or the laying down of the law. What you have seen in your tanks has led you to make a statement of fact that may or may not be true for others. You could rephrase to make it more of a 'your mileage may vary' and allow for the possibility that others may not find it true. To be fair, I did comprehend that you meant yourself when you used the formal 'one', but perhaps you could allow that my interpretation above is also a possibility, especially given that your initial conversation began with a person for whom English is a non-native language? (no offense meant Mark-your English is excellent-I'm just trying to make a general point that careful use of language is essential in a multi-national forum such as this.)

and here again:

it would be reasonable to assume that some small bright fish that hangs around in wrong places may get whacked by loaches....

you are putting forth your opinion of loaches (the whole gamut of them?) as aggressive towards 'small bright fish' based on your experience. Meanwhile, there are hordes of aquarists who keep many varieties of loaches with 'small bright fish' without incident.
And before you condescendingly point out your use of the word 'may'

Please notice my use of *may*

It is unnecessary. I posted it for you...
For your information, though I believe I have attempted to convey this to you before, your inability to graciously allow for dissenting opinion is becoming legendary. As is your penchant for responding to polite requests to lighten up and present your personal observations as just that-- personal--with comments like this:

I do fail to understand what you are trying to say.

You may not have been talking about a 'system of advice' in this particular thread, but Mark (I believe) meant that to apply to the body of contributions we've seen from you as a whole, generally.
Mark expressed his perceptions of your posting style in an attempt to enlighten you. He was speaking of something that bothered him. The crux of the matter is this:

You have a tendency (that I find upsetting) to lay down the law based on your own observations. What's "obvious" to you may not actually dictate the experiences of other fish keepers.

You seem unable to comprehend why he may feel as he does, in fact, your reply seems to be designed to make him look foolish for having mentioned something that I'm sure he was loathe to do. I know I would not have bothered, knowing that this was the type of response I would expect.

You have lived up to my expectations.
He failed to get you to engage in any way with his concerns.
As, I assume, will I.

[Mark Janssen]

holy .... i had to read the last few posts a few times to really understand them. ain't responding since i'm here to talk about loaches and not english grammer and other things i can't observe or don't understand up to a level i could debate about it. Or persons i hardly know.

but ontopic again:

i lost 1 or 2 barbs yesterday after changing the layout of the tank. Moved some stones and driftwood arround to keep the loaches busy... I found a bit of a barb today the other one is still MIA so i cant really anounce his death.

for me it's a last time that i will ad barbs with a large number of loaches i bought them as a schooling fish for the upper levels but they also eat and interact with the loaches on the bottom. I put the remaining ones on a dutch ebay clone and i am going to look voor a rasbora species for in the tank.

if the loaches were in smaller numbers and / or the barbs it may that the problems would not be there. 26-30 loaches and 20 barbs (well it started with 20 ) may not be the perfect combination in my thank (2meter/50cm/50cm) barbs can only annoy the loaches and the loaches can only chase the barbs.

since most of the chasing and killing happens at night i really don't know why the loaches kill them in daylight it's only chasing or a litte nip. And i don't have the time sitting at night with nightgoggles watching the fish. so i will stop putting the to species together in the future.

[mikev]

Mark,

Very likely I'll end up giving them up too...

I don't think this has anything to do with the number of loaches; one likely murder occurred in a tank that had 3 loaches, 2 barbs and some rasboras. In terms of participating species I'm also much lighter stocked than you are right now: 9 botias, 6 barbs in 125g, others (smaller loaches and rainbows) are probably not relevant.

I think the night part is pretty clear too, during the night barbs are defenseless, they will not run away and they seem to sleep next or even on the ground . During the day, they usually can run away.

Possibly only very heavy planting will protect them enough.

The part I don't understand is in which way they disturb the loaches. With the hillstreams, it was pretty clear: by hanging just over them and even nipping on them...but they were never seen doing this to botias, and today my loaches went after them before the barbs even had a chance to cause trouble. So I'm giving it just a little more time, hoping that this is merely an initial reaction to new fish; but if the things don't become quiet after a few days OR the barbs start showing up dead, they will have to go.

---

I may reply to the offtopic part later.

[Martin Thoene]

hoping that this is merely an initial reaction to new fish

Certainly, some of what you are seeing is that. Loaches are naturally inquisitive fish and will investigate newcomers.

Let's dissect your previous post and see where others are coming from in their opinion of it (or at least my interpretation).

It became obvious that one cannot use Odessa's with hillstreams as planned: they pick on Beaufortia's, and they behave even worse with Gastros, so these six just went into the loach tank.

I wouldn't have put them together in the first place because I think that Odessas don't like that much current, plus they do best in heavily planted tanks.

The tank is pretty peaceful, there was only one fight seen in it in a year.

Because it is an established community.

Barbs' appearance caused the following sequence of events:
1. One schistura tried to chase them, then another one. [These schisturas are peaceful]

Introducing new fish into an aquarium with Schistura species should only be done after first feeding the tank well. Schistura think everything going in the tank is for them and their pursuit of new fish can lead to some fin-nipping or at least traumatization of the newbies. They have to "test" for food.

2. One Zipper tried to chase them.

Same thing. Peaceful fish that likes food...and is inquisitive.

3. A Yoyo chased them for about half hour, chased them to a corner and then stopped.

Same again. Your earlier statement that Yoyos are less dangerous in this behaviour is incorrect. They are far more likely to behave this way to new fish, plus occasionally will follow other fish around. I don't think this has necessarily any malicious intent, more inquisitiveness. My oddball marked Yoyo would follow a Cherry barb around for ages, but no damage ever happened.

4. Right now a clown is chasing them.

How big are your Clowns Mike?

The good news are:
* No chasing from the kuhlis (yet).

This statement shows a basic misunderstanding of certain species behavioural habits. If you see a kuhli chasing them please get it on film because it will be a world first. You should not really be keeping Clowns and Kuhlis together anyway.

* The Clown that chasing them now (pretty intensely) is not the one that killed an Odessa before.

What actual evidence do you have to substantiate this accusation against the other Clown?

* Loaches are having good time.
* It is only one loach at a time....for now.

If they get pack mentality, I'll be highly suprised.

I just moved my odd Yoyo and the Yasuhikotakia lecontei I was given into the Clown tank. They floated for about 30 mins but upon release most of the fish in the tank lunged at them because they thought they might be edible. They're a fair bit smaller than anything else in the tank too. It took about two seconds for the fish to discount them and now they're all playing together.

It looks like loaches do hate Odessa's....I'd not be too surprised to see bodies tomorrow, it is the loach time in the dark.... Any bets?

I can see them growing fangs and getting hairy now. No bets. Invariably, partially eaten bodies found in Clown tanks are the result of scavenging action by the Clowns on fish that died for some other reason.
Usually this happens if the fish are insufficiently fed. I've had Tiger Barbs crap out due to old age and be left completely untouched overnight.

Anyway, this is beginning to look like the barbs may have to go back to the store. I did not return fish for a long time, but this may be the only choice.

Odessas are extremely beautiful fish but they do have some annoying behaviour. Invariably there becomes one Alpha male who rules the group. They need a large, heavily planted tank and then it is possible to keep several males in well colored condition. Lots of plants improve their color and general good looks. This factor to an extent makes them incompatible with keeping in a Clown tank unless the plants are big strong types.
Some males can be a PITA in a regular community tank. I can't see them actually aggravating Clowns to a point of them fighting back with extreme violence.
Mark J's inputs are interesting and seem to indicate that size of tank has an impact on Odessa scrapiness and certainly oxygenation and feeding are components in the way they are colored and behave.....indeed in all species.

Seriously, this is upsetting. Odessa's are beautiful, but I cannot afford a Barb-only tank.

I agree. They are a beautiful species in the right setting. I don't buy that "Loaches hate Odessas" but agree that Odessas are somewhat "nutty".

What is a problem here is that there is a perception in the way that you post certain facts Mike in a way that comes across as them being "gospel". You cannot and should not profess on something unless these statements are based on numerous inputs. We always, always have pushed the "Your mileage may vary" approach to giving advice here because there are just way too many factors involved in an aquarium for blanket statements to suffice.

I know that you'll say that you are not making blanket statements because that's your standard answer to just about any questioning of your posts.
What you should ask yourself is why is it that several people with far more experience than you in this hobby feel they need to question how you post certain 'facts'?

It is part of the duty of the moderation team to point out false or misleading information to the membership as a whole. LOL exists to promote proper captive care of Loaches and that inevitably means that their interactions with other species become part of the subject matter.
The subject of Clown Loaches killing other fish is one that appears on occasion here and in other forums. It formed a significant and startling part of the legendary Granville Hammond article on Clown Loach breeding in PFK over 10 years ago......none of the 'facts' in that article were ever substantiated and there has been no concrete evidence produced in other reports that I've seen on the Internet to prove conclusively that Clown Loaches were responsible for "killing" other fish.

There are few inalienable facts in this hobby, but they do exist. On the subject of Clown Loach homicidal tendencies I'm with the "Show me the money" camp.

Martin.

[mikev]

Hi, Martin,

A very good post, and we may get somewhere.

I will divide my answer into two parts, treating shorter items first and leaving others to later.

Quick answers:

I'm in agreement with most of your analysis, including comments on kuhlis, schisturas, zippers, and even yoyo's: my initial comment on yoyo's referred to aggression, not shadowing. I'm also in full agreement with your comments on initial behavior, I've seen a lot of it. I'm aware that initial behavior involves some "testing by force", the same schisturas chased giant danios for a couple of days when they first met.

Odessa's with high current -- next post.

Feeding the tank first -- Agree, and I _always_ do this. Send as many loaches into hiding as possible.

Clowns: between 4" and 5" now...possibly above 5". 2.5" at the time of the Odessa incident.

Evidence in the old accident:
1. Examination of the body. It was not eaten. It had a torn or perhaps cut stomach.
2. No disease signs previous evening.
3. Behavior of the Alpha clown just before the accident, and also after, toward another barb (which were immediately removed): it went for "high-speed intercepts", different from just chasing.
(The only other Botia's in the tank at the time were 2-3 small Kubs, simply incapable of the damage.)

Slightly out of order:

I can't see them actually aggravating Clowns to a point of them fighting back with extreme violence.

Here is a little more and probably the key: the Alpha Barb chased the other Barbs into the shoaling (in essense hiding) with the clowns. Prior to the accident, he was attacking other barbs (mixed in with the clowns). I'm guessing that the Alpha Clown saw this as an attack on his shoal. It is the Alpha Barb that was killed. There was no aggressive behavior from the Alpha Clown for a few days, until new Alpha Barb emerged and the behavior pattern repeated. (And, yes, the Barb group was small and unbalanced, and this quite likely was a big factor.---there is a good chance that a larger and more balanced group of Barbs would be safe from this. But MJ's case involves a very large group of Barbs, and something seems to still go on.) Anyway, I see this episode as a good example of protection offered by the Alpha Clown to his shoal.


Please ignore the line about the pack chase. I don't believe this may happen either, but the very first line of the thread did say: since yesterday my botia's are constantly chasing the barbs in the tank so I pointed out that I don't see this.

Probable disagreement:

Same again. Your earlier statement that Yoyos are less dangerous in this behaviour is incorrect. They are far more likely to behave this way to new fish, plus occasionally will follow other fish around. I don't think this has necessarily any malicious intent, more inquisitiveness.

To clarify, I don't see yoyo's exploring as either malicious or dangerous. IME, Zippers are always the first (among the present species) into testing anything new, but Yoyo's always get to it too.

---

Morning update: no deaths. Some yoyo's chasing in the morning. No aggressive chases between barbs yet. No interest to barbs from any other loaches noticed during the morning feeding.

2nd part later.

[mikev]

Part 2.

Evening update: no tensions noticed right now . The coloration appears superior to the one exhibited during the quarantine (the tank they are in does have better plants.). I actually feel a bit more optimistic, it may be that nearly 5" clowns would not feel threatened by currently 1.25" barbs, whereas a 2.5" clown may feel differently about a 2" barb.

Side remark on coloration: it so happened that the lfs where the no-coloration Odessa problem occurred got new shipment of them on Sun. After reading the comment on O2 on this thread, I've suggested they try it (the fish is again lacking almost any red). This is a system; they put a powerhead at the surface of their tank and it had no effect on the barbs' color over two days. [I have no idea if trying to add O2 to one tank in a system of 20-25 accomplishes anything.]

On generalizations: please notice that the Odessa-Loach tension problem came up more than once. I pretty much wrote off my original incident, but there were also deaths that seem to be linked with Kubs (weaker, but evidence) and also the MJ's situation. This is 3. I'm interested to know what is going on here, in part because I'm not aware of any stories of conflicts between any loaches and danios/rasboras/rainbows.

On keeping Odessa's in a hillstream tank:

I wouldn't have put them together in the first place because I think that Odessas don't like that much current, plus they do best in heavily planted tanks.

This was my original impression, the body shape seems inappropriate. However, after I once complained about this ("this would be a nice looking dither..."), Jim Powers mentioned on LOL that he saw Odessa's at a store and they seemed to like a powerhead. I rechecked this, no adverse reaction. I further tested this last month, in two tanks, and they seem to actually like the current, perhaps as much as Danios do; and in one tank, the coloration was improved with addition of a stronger powerhead. This is the justification for me to think that they will do just fine in a hillstream tank, especially if it is also reasonably planted (the tank intended for them was).
I'd have no hesitation to put them into a Schistura tank (maybe this is the best use for them).

The problem was not with them, but with the hillstreams quarantined with them. While I did not lose any, their behavior was not normal. I complained about a problem with feeding Beaufortia's (?!) before. It was even worse with the Gastros, they made two of Gastro species hiding all the time and I *still* did not see them eating (in fairness, the 3rd Gastro species ignores them or perhaps they ignore it..).

On Hammond: the article is in total conflict with everything I've seen so far. Still, I don't own sexually mature clowns and not in a position to comment. I'd feel somewhat more comfortable dismissing it as hoax if I knew that someone actually tried to check his story...perhaps he died a week after publishing the article and thus could not provide the proof? But this is just me.

What you should ask yourself is why is it that several people with far more experience than you in this hobby feel they need to question how you post certain 'facts'?

But all means please do question the facts I post. I do think before writing anything and if I often do not provide a detailed explanation for a position, I'll be always glad to provide it when requested. Of course, like everyone else, I may be wrong occasionally, and will be only happy to be proven wrong -- any such case would expand everyone's knowledge.

One final side remark: among the original Odessa's I had a female Rosy barb contaminant (juvs look very similar). There was no negative reaction toward her, and she did not die from loach "attention" either.

On MJ's situation: I still would very much like to understand what is happening there. Perhaps there is a rule one can follow to make Odessa's safe from loaches.

[Jim Powers]

mikev wrote:

Jim Powers mentioned on LOL that he saw Odessa's at a store and they seemed to like a powerhead.

You sure about that? I don't recall saying anything about odessas. Checkered barbs maybe, but not odessas.
Its possible, but I sure don't remember

[mikev]

Yes, Jim, here. This is a long thread, Odessa's are mentioned beginning with Page 5.

Naturally, you got me intrigued enough to check this myself... Unf., liking flow is not enough, their behavior is a problem. During the quarantine I never saw Beaufortia's eating (I did see them pooping) and they were always hiding in barb-inaccessible corners. One day after moving them to the Sewellia's 29g, and after being beaten up by the locals, they are behaving totally normally.

[Mark Janssen]

my odessa's don't like current i have 2 powerheads in the tank and they will only go in the strong current if i open the tank in that corner and they think they will get food.

i found the lost male and he is ok so only 2 deaths that happend over night (the fish were not i'll or could die of old age they are too young for that).

the first death i already posten here and that was a female full of eggs. When suddenly letting her eggs go the rest of the barbs started eating of them like crazy and even the female itself. the botia's joined in eating the eggs as the came out. and later really damaging the female itselfs. maybe because they were searching for more eggs?

the second death was the largest male barb. and the latest a small female. since they were all ok before the lights went out i don't see the barbs killing themselfs since when the lights are out they just go on pauze and stop doing what they are doing till the lights go on again.

or.....(well if someone knows please tell me)

i can't pin in for sure on the botia's but they are chasing the barbs (Really chasing and not just a small chase like hey how are you doing...)

and they pose towards big male barbs like this is my home and i will defend it...

my thank is full of stones and wood and plants so there are plenty spots to hide or for making territories

[Martin Thoene]

Yes, Jim, here. This is a long thread, Odessa's are mentioned beginning with Page 5.

Naturally, you got me intrigued enough to check this myself... Unf., liking flow is not enough, their behavior is a problem. During the quarantine I never saw Beaufortia's eating (I did see them pooping) and they were always hiding in barb-inaccessible corners. One day after moving them to the Sewellia's 29g, and after being beaten up by the locals, they are behaving totally normally.

MikeV.
I won my internal bet that you'd go and find the 'evidence'

Unfortunately this hardly strengthens your case. Jim made an observation, not a recommendation in that thread. If you want to base a choice of fish on one person's observation of a species in one situation then you run the risk of having another unrelated problem such as you've experienced.

This is EXACTLY the problem that we observe in your posting style and why it has dangers for others if they take it as gospel. Can you understand the point now?

If you can't then we're all wasting our E-breath trying to get it over to you. I don't know how plainer it could possibly be.

Your main problem with Odessas and Beaufortia happened in a Q-tank environment and the no doubt smaller quarters was possibly a contributing factor. Having kept Odessas before I can't say that I'm suprised at their behaviour in this situation.

Mark J.
These observations are very interesting. While I'm skeptical about Clowns being murderers I think that the posturing at the barbs is a significant observation. It shows some direct interaction of a negative nature. Whether it could progress to actual physical fighting or attack is the question.

We have a large knowledge base here from numerous people's long-term caring for Clowns and one could believe that we've collectively seen it all, yet new quirks of behaviour get reported from time to time. I cannot summarily discount the possibility of a rogue Clown doing in other fish. It's physically possible because they have the same 'equipment' as other Botiid fish that certainly have been known to harass and kill other fish. It's just not in the species general behaviour so we have to be guarded before we accept it as a fact.

There may be some strange thing about Odessa barbs that triggers something in some Clowns. Their behavioural traits never cease to amaze me as we keep discovering little nuances in the way they live. Their minds may be far more complex than we might initially believe.

I'm all for forward thinking and off the wall speculation. It's why this site is so interesting. We have some clever people here.Occasionally that needs reigning in ..........when the possibilities start to sound like actual fact.

Martin.

[mikev]

Yes, Jim, here. This is a long thread, Odessa's are mentioned beginning with Page 5.

Naturally, you got me intrigued enough to check this myself... Unf., liking flow is not enough, their behavior is a problem. During the quarantine I never saw Beaufortia's eating (I did see them pooping) and they were always hiding in barb-inaccessible corners. One day after moving them to the Sewellia's 29g, and after being beaten up by the locals, they are behaving totally normally.

MikeV.
I won my internal bet that you'd go and find the 'evidence'

Unfortunately this hardly strengthens your case. Jim made an observation, not a recommendation in that thread. If you want to base a choice of fish on one person's observation of a species in one situation then you run the risk of having another unrelated problem such as you've experienced.

This is EXACTLY the problem that we observe in your posting style and why it has dangers for others if they take it as gospel. Can you understand the point now?

No, Martin Thoene, I don't understand your point. Perhaps your point will be made clearer if you explain why you chose to ignore a series of experiments to verify what was indeed a casual one person's observation to acting on one person's observation?

The original text, for your convenience:

This was my original impression, the body shape seems inappropriate. However, after I once complained about this ("this would be a nice looking dither..."), Jim Powers mentioned on LOL that he saw Odessa's at a store and they seemed to like a powerhead. I rechecked this, no adverse reaction. I further tested this last month, in two tanks, and they seem to actually like the current, perhaps as much as Danios do; and in one tank, the coloration was improved with addition of a stronger powerhead. This is the justification for me to think that they will do just fine in a hillstream tank, especially if it is also reasonably planted (the tank intended for them was).

It is my impression that you see presenting evidence as somehow being wrong, but I'm still glad it contributed to winning your bet.

[Jim Powers]

I remember observing the checkered barbs, but not the oddessas.
Well, a lot has happened since I posted that observation so I guess I forgot.

[mikev]

NP whatsoever. I was quite motivated to check this, so I played with the powerhead settings and location for a while, to see if they remain comfortable.

One other reason why they are not going into a hillstream tank, btw, was the amount of efforts they put into extracting food from the ground; worse than any Danio I've seen.

In re Odessa-Botia combining, it occurs to me that Odessa-Striata may work nicely, there is a very little chance of either species harming the other. Sizes , temp, and flow requirements match pretty well.

[Mark Janssen]

@martin i don't have clowns (had them but not anymore i wanted to focus on the smaller species), just for the record

i do get the point that what happens in situation x is not a rule for situation y but isn't that with all things?

isn't that commen knowledge?