My 2005 loach came from Petland, which has its own suppliers, it also was the only time I saw this problem in Petland loaches (I always look at clowns). From what has been reported, it appears that there is a disease out there that is not very common but invaded one particular supplier (or perhaps one farm?). What would be nice is to figure it out.
clownloachfan,
I don't see any reason why one cannot name the stores where you saw the problem....
@TB: yes, *usually* it will spread and often will result in bleaching the tank. It did not spread for you, and it did not spread in my case either: two loaches that came with the unfortunate "bubble" fish are still here and doing fine. There are other problems with the TB guess. However, TB is not off my suspect list entirely.
Important: PLEASE clarify
the bubble is visible from both sides of the clown
Are you saying both sides have the bubble?
If additional photos are wanted, perhaps it would be possible for you to borrow a camera...just an idea.
clown loaches with (bubble)
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clownloachfan
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Thank you!clownloachfan wrote:the supplier is florida fish farms or something like that and segrest(petco). It is one bubble that is visible from both sides of the fish
ASAIK: Florida Fish Farms is a major importer. They buy from various sources. No reasons to assume they did something wrong (except for possibly buying from a contaminated farm).
One bubble: hmmm.... mine had a bubble, identical to yours, on one side. The other side was perfect. More mystery.
Unfortunately, you need to dig more information. You are the only one who has access to them... Perhaps someone you know around also had an experience with them.
APPEND: just reread the thread. what happened to your yoyo with a bubble?
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clownloachfan
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This would be great indeed...And Rocco, could you please check on the issues of the bubble position and its presence on both sides?
I'm having a difficult time understanding how this is physically possible: a dual bubble would point to a large ball present inside the fish, displacing its organs -- this is crazy and needs many confirmations before believed. But if this happens to be the case, this adds a lot to the disease picture.
What happened to the yoyo?
I'm having a difficult time understanding how this is physically possible: a dual bubble would point to a large ball present inside the fish, displacing its organs -- this is crazy and needs many confirmations before believed. But if this happens to be the case, this adds a lot to the disease picture.
What happened to the yoyo?
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clownloachfan
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Well, I'll be on lookout for that, but here in NY it is mostly Petland, with different distribution channels.
We may get something by having a few of disease progress reports matched against each other. My 2005 case in full was essentially this:
One of the clowns developed skin lesions of unclear nature, perhaps a month after I got it. While certainly not Ich, I've used the drugs that target Ich and successfully cleared the lesions within a few days. This repeated either 2 or 3 more times: lesions, always in the mid-body on one side, (this was the side that had the bubble, and the lesions were in close proximity to it) and successful treatment, then a repeat 4-6 weeks later. There was NO wasting. A few months later, all the clowns were moved to a larger tank (29g->65g), at that time the affected clown was perhaps 2" (from the original 1.5" size). After about 3 weeks, it developed lesions again, but this time the disease "went global" and also included massive fin deterioration. I was trying to stop it, but after a couple of days the other clowns rejected him, and he died within a day. This is about as much as I could remember.
It is not certain that this is the same disease as yours, the bubble matches, the rest does not match perfectly, but since the symptoms were likely secondary infections, they don't need to match. Some of the symptoms do agree with Fish TB, some don't. The fact that nobody else got infected (two other original clowns are still very much alive and approaching 5" now) argues against TB.
Until your post I viewed my experience as an isolated case...and basically wrote it off as a lesson to avoid buying very young loaches. Some photos were made at the time, but I cannot find them now.
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Do you remember anything else about the Yoyo case? Double bubble? Same bubble position? Secondary signs? How long? How large was the yoyo?
We may get something by having a few of disease progress reports matched against each other. My 2005 case in full was essentially this:
One of the clowns developed skin lesions of unclear nature, perhaps a month after I got it. While certainly not Ich, I've used the drugs that target Ich and successfully cleared the lesions within a few days. This repeated either 2 or 3 more times: lesions, always in the mid-body on one side, (this was the side that had the bubble, and the lesions were in close proximity to it) and successful treatment, then a repeat 4-6 weeks later. There was NO wasting. A few months later, all the clowns were moved to a larger tank (29g->65g), at that time the affected clown was perhaps 2" (from the original 1.5" size). After about 3 weeks, it developed lesions again, but this time the disease "went global" and also included massive fin deterioration. I was trying to stop it, but after a couple of days the other clowns rejected him, and he died within a day. This is about as much as I could remember.
It is not certain that this is the same disease as yours, the bubble matches, the rest does not match perfectly, but since the symptoms were likely secondary infections, they don't need to match. Some of the symptoms do agree with Fish TB, some don't. The fact that nobody else got infected (two other original clowns are still very much alive and approaching 5" now) argues against TB.
Until your post I viewed my experience as an isolated case...and basically wrote it off as a lesson to avoid buying very young loaches. Some photos were made at the time, but I cannot find them now.
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Do you remember anything else about the Yoyo case? Double bubble? Same bubble position? Secondary signs? How long? How large was the yoyo?
I was going to take a pic but the shop owner made a fuss about it and no matter what I told him, he wouldn't change his mind and threw me out of his shop. Needless to say, I am not buying fish from there, ever.clownloachfan wrote:Any chance of you getting a nice pic for us Rocco?
I didn't get too good a look at the fish, but the little guy did have a big bubble and I suspect it was on both sides and was a large bubble that was displacing organs. I'll try to pass by again and get a better look.
That's horrible!:evil: If that's the kind of service they provide for their customers, I'd never even shop there as well.Rocco wrote:I was going to take a pic but the shop owner made a fuss about it and no matter what I told him, he wouldn't change his mind and threw me out of his shop. Needless to say, I am not buying fish from there, ever.
I'll be interested to see the photo of that.I didn't get too good a look at the fish, but the little guy did have a big bubble and I suspect it was on both sides and was a large bubble that was displacing organs. I'll try to pass by again and get a better look.
Passion for loaches + Passion for snails = Irony
Not so good photos by the ninja photographer... I err... didn't provide these.
Here you go. I'm sorry that the detail isn't as sharp as my other photos but given the circumstances, these are the best I could provide. I sure hope they help.
I checked the other stores that I knew had clown loaches, particularly the little ones and only found these ones to have the bubbles and reddened gills. I have not seen any of the larger ones. Sadly, the one I said that had the largest bubble was dead in the tank and I couldn't get a good angle on the poor thing.
On the brighter side, I finally found yoyo loaches for less than $1 so I bought 10 and I found kubs (fresh outta quarantine all) for around $2.25, of which, I bought three. By doing so, I wiped out the store's entire stock. I didn't feel bad doing so as this store takes the best care of their fish and has an owner who really cares for his fish. (will post pics soon)
10 to 1 that they have more variety of loaches the next time I check back. now my MTS and fish fever have gone into full swing again.
Here you go. I'm sorry that the detail isn't as sharp as my other photos but given the circumstances, these are the best I could provide. I sure hope they help.
I checked the other stores that I knew had clown loaches, particularly the little ones and only found these ones to have the bubbles and reddened gills. I have not seen any of the larger ones. Sadly, the one I said that had the largest bubble was dead in the tank and I couldn't get a good angle on the poor thing.
On the brighter side, I finally found yoyo loaches for less than $1 so I bought 10 and I found kubs (fresh outta quarantine all) for around $2.25, of which, I bought three. By doing so, I wiped out the store's entire stock. I didn't feel bad doing so as this store takes the best care of their fish and has an owner who really cares for his fish. (will post pics soon)
10 to 1 that they have more variety of loaches the next time I check back. now my MTS and fish fever have gone into full swing again.
Great job, Rocco!
Congratulations on the Yoyo's and Kub's: the prices are unbelievable!
I'm having a problem seeing the bubbles on almost all the photos...maybe it would be possible while you remember to mark the photos showing where they are exactly? And if you remember, say which one(s) are on both sides?
Perhaps, since you already bought lots of fish from the store, you can simply ask the owner for a permission to make photos? [I did this many times in NY, including the stores where I don't go often and do not buy anything...did not get a NO yet. I know that some chains in the US have a policy against photos, but small stores usually don't care if you ask them nicely.]
Looking at the pictures, I don't see the gills being abnormally red, these are young fish, red gills are common. [It would be nice if someone else like Emma weights on this]. I think I see wasting in at least one loach.
Now, here is my crazy theory, you are welcome to demolish it: a tissue parasite, similar to Trichinella or perhaps even Trichinella. I wonder what kind of food they give loaches on the farms, it has to be something cheap. Perhaps they use pig hearts like we use beef hearts in frozen food? This would explain most of what we see, but not the double bubble.
Congratulations on the Yoyo's and Kub's: the prices are unbelievable!
I'm having a problem seeing the bubbles on almost all the photos...maybe it would be possible while you remember to mark the photos showing where they are exactly? And if you remember, say which one(s) are on both sides?
Perhaps, since you already bought lots of fish from the store, you can simply ask the owner for a permission to make photos? [I did this many times in NY, including the stores where I don't go often and do not buy anything...did not get a NO yet. I know that some chains in the US have a policy against photos, but small stores usually don't care if you ask them nicely.]
Looking at the pictures, I don't see the gills being abnormally red, these are young fish, red gills are common. [It would be nice if someone else like Emma weights on this]. I think I see wasting in at least one loach.
Now, here is my crazy theory, you are welcome to demolish it: a tissue parasite, similar to Trichinella or perhaps even Trichinella. I wonder what kind of food they give loaches on the farms, it has to be something cheap. Perhaps they use pig hearts like we use beef hearts in frozen food? This would explain most of what we see, but not the double bubble.
Hi there. This morning I accidentally broke the UV bulb of one filter and I spent most of the morning trying to find a replacement. Finally I tried what we call FCC which stays for Fish Concentration Camp as it is possibly the world worst fish shop. I am not very popular there as I often complained for the state of their live stock and because they sell dyed fish.
Anyway, the point is that I noticed a cubicle with about 50 emaciated Clowns. They were very small and extremely skinny. I meant to take a pic with my cell phone but I was under the manager's constant surveillance.
I haven't noticed any "bubble" as such but since they were so thin the internal organs were "bulging" out. In some individuals the area appeared to be inflamed too. I wonder whether this is the initial stage of what Rocco has observed. This would explain why the bubble appears on the same spot on both sides. Possibly it is a combination of bloated digestive system on an anorexic body.
Still, I find it strange that in years I never noticed anything like that, even at FCC.
Anyway, the point is that I noticed a cubicle with about 50 emaciated Clowns. They were very small and extremely skinny. I meant to take a pic with my cell phone but I was under the manager's constant surveillance.
I haven't noticed any "bubble" as such but since they were so thin the internal organs were "bulging" out. In some individuals the area appeared to be inflamed too. I wonder whether this is the initial stage of what Rocco has observed. This would explain why the bubble appears on the same spot on both sides. Possibly it is a combination of bloated digestive system on an anorexic body.
Still, I find it strange that in years I never noticed anything like that, even at FCC.
The red dot by their gills is actually where the bubbles are underneath. All but one of the loaches has it. (and on both sides mind you)mikev wrote:Great job, Rocco!
Congratulations on the Yoyo's and Kub's: the prices are unbelievable!
I'm having a problem seeing the bubbles on almost all the photos...maybe it would be possible while you remember to mark the photos showing where they are exactly? And if you remember, say which one(s) are on both sides?
Perhaps, since you already bought lots of fish from the store, you can simply ask the owner for a permission to make photos? [I did this many times in NY, including the stores where I don't go often and do not buy anything...did not get a NO yet. I know that some chains in the US have a policy against photos, but small stores usually don't care if you ask them nicely.]
Looking at the pictures, I don't see the gills being abnormally red, these are young fish, red gills are common. [It would be nice if someone else like Emma weights on this]. I think I see wasting in at least one loach.
Now, here is my crazy theory, you are welcome to demolish it: a tissue parasite, similar to Trichinella or perhaps even Trichinella. I wonder what kind of food they give loaches on the farms, it has to be something cheap. Perhaps they use pig hearts like we use beef hearts in frozen food? This would explain most of what we see, but not the double bubble.
I don't buy fish from the store where I took these pictures. The fish I bought were from one of my two favorite shops that quarantine their fish before putting them on display. (I have good relations with these shops, which, I'm sad to say, I don't with the shop containing the sick loaches.
If any of you all decide to take a vacation in the Philippines, I'll be more than happy to take you around the local fish stores (most of the fish are kept in appalling conditions unfortunately.) and help you collect as many indian almond leaves as you can carry.
Needless to say, I'll be on the prowl with my camera more often and hopefully give you guys sharper pictures next time around.
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clownloachfan
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thanks for the pics rocco, i can especially see the bubble in pics 3 and 5. Still, it is hard to see. I like the theory about the loaches being fed pig hearts. It makes sense. I remember studying Trichinella in my biology class, i will have to refresh my memory on it. The only thing i remember about it is that humans get it if we eat raw or undercooked pork.
Clowns-6 is a group and more is never too many, providing the aquarium is large enough.
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