Kub acting odd

[Tinman]

I have a Kub still in QT that I have put through 3 Levamisol treatments at 2ppm along with all my baby loaches and 3 other Kubs previously and a week of Pimafix plus a label following round of anti parisite food over the last 6 weeks. I have been holding them to make sure all is perfect. I lost a Kub last week and now have one twitching like a seizure twitch, not scraping but muscle contraction like. I have never seen this in 30 years of fish keeping . I have been all over the internet and this site and see nothing about this. I treated with Levamisol last night again and just completed the water change now . The fish moved into the current of my system water immediatly upon opening the valve but is still convulsing occasionally. Exactly as before the treatment .This fish has excellent color but was on its side when I got home,and no not like normal laying loaches, and got up and swam but I am really stumped.
I ordered Almond leaves last week but they will be a week or two yet.
Water Parameters in ppm
Nitrate 20
Nitrite 0
Hardness 75
KH 120
PH 7.0
Anyone? Pleeez......

[mikev]

Levamisole side effects are mentioned here and include

nervous system problems (confusion or loss of consciousness, extreme fatigue, memory loss, muscle weakness, numbness or tingling; seizure, speech disturbances).

This may or may not be relevant; 2ppm is very low, and I've used considerably higher concentration without side effects.

Is it possible that you miscalculated the concentration and used a considerably higher dose? (like 50ppm?)

Next, tank wipeouts with levamisole have been reported, the cause of them is not clear but may be related to "unclean" products (drugs designed for animals may include something else, that does not represent a danger to animals but may be fatal to fish). What is the source of levamisole you used? (we may be able to check your "brand" against other people using it).

And of course, it may also be some disease that came with new fish, this is pretty common.

hth

[Emma Turner]

Tinman, is it anything like Chen's video (of a clown loach) here: http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=6926

Emma

[Tinman]

Is it possible that you miscalculated the concentration and used a considerably higher dose? (like 50ppm?)


I used the calculater it was approx 1 teaspoon for ten ounces of water to a dosage of 1 ounce solution per 55 gallons


What is the source of levamisole you used? (we may be able to check your "brand" against other people using it)

Ordered from Agri/labs Soluable pig wormer from Keiths link

of the 13 fish in this tank this is the only one breathing hard so I doubt a overdose and I am sure this fish was sick as most/all are upon arrival but that has been 6 weeks of apparent good health

Emma,
very similar but this fish is breathing rapidly and when I got home was being picked/poked on by a clown as it lay as many will to a sick fish. It seemed very rigid also with fins straight out to its sides .It is upright and twitching like Chens now. I am going back to re-read that post now but any ideas???

[mikev]

of the 13 fish in this tank this is the only one breathing hard so I doubt a overdose and I am sure this fish was sick as most/all are upon arrival but that has been 6 weeks of apparent good health

Individual's reactions to overdose, contaminant, or even a drug at a normal does may differ greatly.

The chances, IMO, are that you are having some disease in the qtank (you mentioned losing a Kub a week ago --- lots of strange disease show up in loaches, some with longer incubation time), so one thing for certain is that you should reset the clock on the qtank: at least a month since the last death/symptoms. 3 Levamisole treatments also should be enough, so I'd not do any further treatments with it.

hth

[Tinman]

Hence the reason still in QT for so long. I am very curious about this . I am stumped but not done yet. I will find the answer for my pal. Losing fish is part of the hobby but unexplained is not.Thanks Mikev

[mikev]

Losing fish is part of the hobby but unexplained is not.

Unfortunately, some will remain unexplained. I do my best to figure each case out, but once in a while there is simply nothing to go on..., or the case is just too bizarre to make any sense.

Best of luck to you.

..and recheck them for Ich just in case. The thing is that Ich is less noticeable on Kubs than on Clowns. My last four were bought with lots of it, and showed not just heavy breathing but a couple also some twitching, for about a day, until the drugs started working. Probably not, but imho worth making sure.

[shari2]

Generally, if the levamisole is ineffective I do a round of antibiotic treatment. It almost always works and the fish begin to snap back. Often fish damaged by a heavy load of parasites (enough to cause serious wasting) will succumb to secondary bacterial infections that manifest in a variety of symptoms, or sometimes, no symptoms at all. They simply don't appear to respond to the parasite treatments.

I'm not sure that the neurological symptoms you're seeing could be infection related, and using antibiotics can be problematic, but it's the logical next step for me when I see the failure of parasite treatments. Can't always see what's going inside the fish from the outside, but I know what parasites can do to internal organs/tissues, and it ain't pretty. Secondary infection is a high probability in these cases.

My antibiotic of choice is Kanacyn. I've yet to have the cloudy water issues that are commonly experienced with the Maracyns.

[Tinman]

RIP Thanks for the replys to all.

I will hit that faster next time Shari. This fish was not wasting at time of purchase. I avoid those now through experiance. The rapid gill movement made me think parisite,that was not correct apparently.

[Blue]

RIP Thanks for the replys to all.

I will hit that faster next time Shari. This fish was not wasting at time of purchase. I avoid those now through experiance. The rapid gill movement made me think parisite,that was not correct apparently.

That's a shame. Sorry to hear your loss.

[mikev]

RIP Thanks for the replys to all.

I will hit that faster next time Shari. This fish was not wasting at time of purchase. I avoid those now through experiance. The rapid gill movement made me think parisite,that was not correct apparently.

Very sorry to hear this.

Don't jump to conclusions please; parasite remain fully possible.

I'm probably too late, but it is really essential to do a necropsy in such cases. Most parasites are large enough that you can see them with unaided sight; not seeing any parasites in the digestive tract is an indication (not proof) that it is not parasitic. Often you can see something moving in the bowels of a dissected fish right away -- parasites don't die with the fish -- and then you can try to identify the culprit.

Based on what you said -- very rapid wasting -- it is probably not parasitic. *Probably* -- in need of checking. TB is not out of question, this is one of the worst possibilities.

You still have some fish in this tank, right?

[Tinman]

This fish did not nor was not wasting.It ate well and had cucumber the night before which potentially could have been an introduction of poisen in my tank. It was fully colored and eating,swimming but would then lay on its side like a seziure occasionally for two days with its pec fins rigid straight out. Upon death it was colored at my arrival home except for by its gills and at its head which had started getting white. I suspect a parisite ate upon a vital organ that was in the fish upon arrival and was not affected by the Levimosal.This fish is/was amongst 10 Clowns and now only 3 Kubs in a QT.

Thank You guys for your sympathy. I am worried about the future now . I am diligent and will be doing extensive cleaning for the next few days. I can and will do better with a little help from my friends here.

[mikev]

Sorry -- misunderstood what you said re wasting. Ignore what I said about TB, it is less likely with your correction.

Please do try to do necropsy, if you have another loss. We don't have too many diagnostics tools in our disposal, best to use everything that we have, especially that there are still many loaches at stake. If the situation does not stabilize, with 13 loaches involved, it may make sense to look for a vet and pathology tests.

Keep in mind that Levamisole does not kill all parasites. And, yes, it is also possible that there was a parasite that was taken out by your treatment, but already caused irreversible damage; I've seen this (low probability, imo).

Best of luck!

[Tinman]

Problem solved.
This problem repeated itself this last weekend. I had another Kub acting odd. Very rigid,fins straight out. It even swam as if it was stiff,with full color still trying to eat and then it weny squirrelly ,all over in the tank in figure eights. I then knew I could solve this becuase that I recognized. I added Dechlorinator immediately and changed the carbon on my trickle filter. The fresh water into my tank filter was not working and this was chloramine poisening . I post this so others will be vigilant. Chlorine dissipates with my massive surface area but chloramine does not.
This leads me to the conclusion that like all loaches Kubs are very susceptable to chlorine/chloramine. These Kubs all showed signs previous to any other loaches that I keep so I suppose Kubs are even more touchy than other loaches.
This fish is fine and swimming well as are my others. I am very happy to say the least and a tiny smidge wiser ,Very tiny smidge.

[Mark in Vancouver]

Excellent news. I'm glad you worked out what the problem was.