My loaches are in hiding: Help!!

[wezzie]

Hi all,

I have four clown loaches one 2 1/2"(fairly new to the aquarium), two that are about 4" and one that is about 6". In the past few days they have stayed in hiding and I'm not sure if they are eating. We did a 33% water change 5 days ago because we were having a problem with the PH levels in the aquarium. All of my other fish seem to be doing fine. I have a 55gal. tank. All test on the water are good. I did lose my fifth loach about 10 days ago. Can anyone tell me if I have a problem. I am tempted to remove their hiding place to check to see if they are still alive. All of the other fish in the aquarium are 1" to 2" in length except for the algee eater which is about 6" long. Please reply, I am really worried.
Thank you,
Wezzie
[/b]

[bslindgren]

They are masters at hiding. If I were you, I would look for them and just make sure that they are OK, but don't take away their hiding place. That will just make them skittish and nervous. If you can provide tha water specifications it would help the experts on this forum to tell you if there is a problem.

[chefkeith]

You already stated there is a problem with the pH. What is the kH? Without knowing the kH, the pH number cannot be understood.

I'd be worried too. You have major problems if fish are dying and you're not quarantining new fish.
There's not much else I could tell you without seeing all your fish, and knowing all the water parameters, which includes tap water parameters.

kH, gH, and nitrates would be great to know.

[Tinman]

Hi Wezzie . Lose the hiding spot unless it has
excellent flow through. Add a power head for flow as these fish need massive flow. Use a piece of PVC pointed at the power head for a hiding spot so the flow is across the body of the fish in hiding. Finding a decoration you enjoy looking at is not important until you understand these fishes needs . Post the ph and kh for some more advice. Do another water change,5 days is long enough between especially with problems ongoing. Any hiding spot with one entrance is un-acceptable for these fish . They must be in the flow or you will lose them sooner or later. A hidey hole with one entrance will not let waste escape so your fish is effectively sleeping in a toilet and if this is the lowest spot in the tank it is even worse for other waste will collect there too......

[wezzie]

I do have air flow in the fixture with four openings. The PH is at 7, the nitrites are at a safe level not sure about the KH. The clowns have started moving around a bit this morning. I did notice; on the largest one top fin has some some white spots, we will be removing it today to our hospital tank to get a better look so we can start treatment. Thank you for your replys and if you have anymore suggestions I would be greatful. I will keep you updated on its progress.

Wezzie[/b]

[adamrf1126]

if your clown has white spots, that sounds like ich. It could have been brought in with your newest clown.

[wezzie]

if your clown has white spots, that sounds like ich. It could have been brought in with your newest clown.

I have had to newest clown for about two months, the others I have had about 18 months, would it take that long for the ich to show up?

[Blue]

I have had to newest clown for about two months, the others I have had about 18 months, would it take that long for the ich to show up?

Yep. Ich do not remain dormant but stay around the gills waiting to appear when opportunity arises which is to say stress of fish.

[cybermeez]

You probably know this, but both ammonia and nitrite readings should be zero. Let us know if they aren't and I can give some advice on how to deal with that.

If what you fish has is indeed ich, you should treat the whole tank. Any way to get us a photo of the affected fish?

Ich is parasite that has a phase in its life cycle where it is free swimming and not on the fish. I've had great success with Seachem's Para Guard. In my experience it's one the safest of the ich medications. The problem is places like PetCo don't usually carry it. Petsmart might, but usually you can find it at the smaller fish shops that tend cater to saltwater or advanced aquarists.

The other thing I would recommend is using a pH buffer. Again I'd recommend Seachem products for this. They make a product called Neutral Regulator that holds the pH at a steady 7.0 and it should fit the bill for you. If your pH is 7.0 before you add the buffer that makes things very easy and you can add the full amount for 55 gallons at one time. If it's not 7.0 then I'd add it via small water changes (like 10% at a time) over several days. Any sudden pH change can kill fish. At the very least it stresses them and makes them vulnerable to illness.

[chefkeith]

It's really the osmotic changes that stress fish, not the pH change. By adjusting CO2 and Tannins levels, you can change pH safely without harming fish.

Also, the kH should be known before adding any buffers. Adding buffers can set-up future conditions that will cause osmotic shock if a large water change is done and you forget to pre-mix the buffers.

If you start adding minerals you really should monitor the TDS levels also. Any big change in TDS is stressful to fish and can open the door for bacterial/parasite infections.

A TDS meter only costs about $20 and gives an instant reading on the total dissolved solids. It could be the most valuable tool for an aquarium owner.

[wezzie]

We have removed the fixture and the marks on its top fin looks more like an injury then ich. All of the other loaches are swimming and enjoying the water flow in the aquarium, but our big guy is now hiding in a log that is small for him. The other loaches keep checking on him but he seem to be content with keeping out of sight. I did notice that the fixture that they all have been hiding in has some rough edges. I'm concidering leaving it out of the tank. There are still a couple of places in the tank for them to keep out of sight. I have read all of the advice from all who have replyed and will look into the all of the suggeations. Thank you all so much. I would love to post a picture, but like I said he is out of sight. Should I catch him out I will try to post one.

Wezzie

[cybermeez]

It's really the osmotic changes that stress fish, not the pH change. By adjusting CO2 and Tannins levels, you can change pH safely without harming fish.

No, that's not entirely true. There would be no osmotic stress without a rapid pH change. The second gives rise to the first, and it's not the only cause of osmotic stress.

Also, the kH should be known before adding any buffers. Adding buffers can set-up future conditions that will cause osmotic shock if a large water change is done and you forget to pre-mix the buffers.

Also not always true. You're assuming all buffers are carbonate buffers. They're not. Seachem's Neutral Regulator is a phosphate based buffer. KH is not as much of an issue in fresh water as in the marine hobby unless you have a water source that is unduly alkaline. That can be the case for some well water but rarely for municipal sources because it would usually be softened to some degree before it ever hit your tap. Also, for routine water changes all new water going into the tank should always match the pH of the water already in the tank.

If you start adding minerals you really should monitor the TDS levels also. Any big change in TDS is stressful to fish and can open the door for bacterial/parasite infections.

A TDS meter only costs about $20 and gives an instant reading on the total dissolved solids. It could be the most valuable tool for an aquarium owner.

Also not really true for the reasons stated above. Unless you have an issue with the quality of your source water there is no need for a TDS meter in the freshwater hobby. Besides, TDS meters don't measure the mineral content of water they measure its conductivity. Conductivity can be affected by all sorts of different things in solution not just carbonate.

I only use a TDS meter with the R/O D/I unit I use to generate water for my reef tank. I use it primarily to determine when the R/O membrane needs to be changed. The whole idea of R/O D/I is that it filters out as much as possible and generates the closest thing on the molecular level to true water (i.e. H20....molecules of two hydrogen atoms with one oxygen atom).

This pure water is not good for any aquatic organism (fresh or salt). It's only used in the saltwater hobby because tap water contains all kinds of organic and inorganic compounds detrimental to sensitive reef organisms (coral in particular). In fact, most marine slat mixes are designed to be used with only R/O water and (depending on the brand) add back dozens of trace minerals in addition to sodium, calcium, magnesium and chloride.

I'm all for the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid) because everyone here falls at different points on the experience spectrum. Advanced water chemistry and a TDS meter (and all that goes with it) are definitely not simple with respect to the freshwater hobby.

[cybermeez]

We have removed the fixture and the marks on its top fin looks more like an injury then ich. All of the other loaches are swimming and enjoying the water flow in the aquarium, but our big guy is now hiding in a log that is small for him. The other loaches keep checking on him but he seem to be content with keeping out of sight. I did notice that the fixture that they all have been hiding in has some rough edges. I'm concidering leaving it out of the tank. There are still a couple of places in the tank for them to keep out of sight. I have read all of the advice from all who have replyed and will look into the all of the suggeations. Thank you all so much. I would love to post a picture, but like I said he is out of sight. Should I catch him out I will try to post one.

Wezzie

Sounds like he'll be fine. Just keep your water clean and he should heal nicely. I try to steer clear of sharp edges myself and I think your instinct is good.

[Mark in Vancouver]

A lot of people new to aquariums - and even some experienced people - take time to get their heads around water chemistry and the role water hardness plays in maintaining a steady pH. I have to admit (being an idiot when it comes to chemistry, math, and physics) that it took me ages to find a way to keep my pH totally stable.

Having extremely soft water, as I do, I need to add a little GH salts in order to grow plants well. After much experimentation, I also supplement to keep the kH stable. It's so much part of my routine that I'd have to probably get out a pencil and a piece of paper to describe it accurately, but I know the effect - no fish stress.

If anyone knows of a link to a very simplified explanation of how this all works, it would probably help. We cannot assume that everyone who shows up on this forum is versed in these nuances of water chemistry.

[chefkeith]

I just wrote a lengthy reply then hit the back button by mistake and lost the entire post.
I don’t feel like rewriting it all, but it was about pH, a fishes Osmolarity System, and more about TDS. Most of what I’ve learned about the subject is from a well respected retired biochemist (RTR), who has written many articles on aquarium water quality. I believe what he writes is correct.

I have some links of Articles by RTR-
http://aquafacts.net/index.php?option=c ... 0#msg24930
http://aquafacts.net/index.php?option=c ... 1#msg24931

Other readings-
http://www.msnusers.com/LyreTailsAquarium/osmosis.msnw
http://new.killi.net/keeping/water/scheel/
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/m ... 00248.html
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/m ... 00248.html
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/m ... 00949.html
http://fins.actwin.com/fish/killietalk/ ... 00699.html
http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/month ... 00361.html
http://aquafacts.net/index.php?option=c ... 1#msg26631
http://www.tdsmeter.com/abouttds_aquaculture.html