Bottom view of a protomyzon?

[mikev]

This clinches it. Thank you very much.

[Martin Thoene]

Took the words right out of my mouth there HH!

If that's what it meant (white head) it would be called something like niveacephalus I think.

Here's some pics (old) of mine.....



I had this fish back in '99.

I gotta say Mike. Those pics look like one sick fish to me.

Martin.

[mikev]

TY, Martin,

The underside looks like the one.

I gotta say Mike. Those pics look like one sick fish to me.

All right, I'm staying all the way away from it.

Sorry for asking these questions, there was no way for me to know what it was.

[Martin Thoene]

Right now, it's Protomyzon dongonearwivatenfootpolei

Sad to see

Martin.

[mikev]

Right now, it's Protomyzon dongonearwivatenfootpolei

Sad to see

Martin.

Actually, I saw him today at the store. Except for the head, looks fine and active.

I really liked the little guy, so I put a word for him with the store owner (rare unusual fish, you'll never have anything like this, and it will look very nicely in your display tank, but keep him isolated for two weeks).

[mikev]

This is to confirm that your diagnosis was correct.

[Martin Thoene]

It shuffled of this mortal coil? If the LFS owner hadn't crazy-glued it to the glass in the first place it would have been pushing up the Vallisneria?
It has ceased to be? It snuffed it?

Toldya! This is where theoretically Jim and I do a high-five, but maybe it should be a Lo-five

Martin.

[mikev]

No, it is worse.

The erromyzon is alive and active, as before. (If it were dead, it would have proven nothing -- fish die at lfs). But there were at least three cheni's at the store with patches this time (one dead, two alive)--same shipment as this fellow. So add cheni's to the list of vulnerable species.

I don't think they are going to treat either, which is upsetting to me. (I'm very tempted to use a dirty word here....)

Yet worse is that I don't know at all where I stand now myself and what I should be doing.--I have some of the chenis from the same shipment. I cannot use Maracyn's. Do you know what else might work? TC? Acriflavine? Meth Blue?

I'm actually tempted to get this protomyzon after all. This is less insane than seems -- I need to learn how to cure it in case I have this sh@t breaking out in my tank, and starting today may buy me a few days of learning.

In your opinion: how long would a 1in hillstream survive in an uncycled 5g tank?

As for high-five, I think you should wait till this disease is properly documented and a way to deal with it exists, it needs to be done.

[Jim Powers]

I can't believe you are even considering getting that erromyzon. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Believe me, you don't want to mess around with something like this.
Try treating your fish with Maracyn 2 only. Use some ammonia absorbing pads or ammo chips to prevent ammonia spiking if that is what you are worried about.
I don't know what else to tell you.

[mikev]

I can't believe you are even considering getting that erromyzon. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

How else can I find out which *other* med work? I don't have a fish with a patch here. (it is not about keeping or saving this fish)

Believe me, you don't want to mess around with something like this.

Separate tank, in another room?

Try treating your fish with Maracyn 2 only. Use some ammonia absorbing pads or ammo chips to prevent ammonia spiking if that is what you are worried about.
I don't know what else to tell you.

I wish it were ammonia.....

Here is the situation. Maybe you can tell me something.

I actually treated them with both already (five day course). I got a nitrIte spike on day four, and a bad one -- I still have not fully stabilized the tank and the nitrItes went up to 0.25 occassionally -- this is a certain kill zone for the Chenis. I did complete the round, suppressing nitrItes as best as I could, and even did not lose any in the process. For the last two days of the treatment, medicating under heavy nitrItes and expecting someone to drop dead at any moment (I saw the change in chenis behavior and signs of irritation). While this did not happen, at the end of the course I still could not stabilize the tank. So I moved the chenis to the 29g, giving up on quarantine.

(Yes, please tell me this was a stupid move; but I had to weight the risks and I did not know for sure that the patchy disease was even a factor at the time.)

If I did not do this, I would have certainly doomed most chenis, and I would have made it very difficult to stabilize the Q-tank --- too much fish.

I don't see any *certain* symptomes now.

But what the hell do I do now? -- that is, besides checking them every few hours....

Medicating the 29g with Maracyn2 has a good (perhaps certain) chance of a nitrIte spike there. At which point I will be out of places to run to. And do I know for a fact that Maracyn2 is even effective? -- this may be a different "patchy" strand or even another bacteria.

[Jim Powers]

First of all, if you are careful when choosing your fish in the future and properly quarentine them , you probably won't have this problem again.
Secondly, if you treated the chenis for five days and never saw any symptoms, you will probably be okay.
So, I ask, why court trouble by picking up this obviously sick fish that might die at any time inorder to find an alternative to a proven treatment?
It defies logic (Mr. Spock would surely raise his eyebrow to this )
Just take a deep breath...relax...and watch the chenis. If they exhibit the first symptoms of this disease (loss of appetite and excessive hiding) you might need to be concerned.
In the future when you quarentine and want to use an antibiotic, just use Maracyn 2. I have NEVER had any problems with nitrite spikes when I used it exclusively.
Don't turn this into a larger problem than it is.
Good luck!!!!

[mikev]

Thanks again, Jim,

(I actually did everything possible to do this right---I have examined all incoming fish twice, and broke the quarantine only because of the spike---I saw chenis totally stopping mutual chasing as a really bad sign). Heck, I even build up the nitrifying bacteria level in the Q-tank -- before putting the fish in --- hoping to ride out a hike this way.

The reason I'm worried is that the store was supposed to do the same treatment as I did on theirs, and they failed. Either they lied to me about what they did (I already got them to confess it was four days, not five,....it could have been one), or this germ is resistant.

I don't know why i got the spike -- but it was a pretty bad one, and it is the second time I got such a spike. Possibly I have a weak strand of the nitrifying bacteria here.

So, I ask, why court trouble by picking up this obviously sick fish that might die at any time inorder to find an alternative to a proven treatment?

We don't know it is exactly the same disease---or something similar, or a resistant strain. And I'd love to have something other than Maracyn available.

This is actually what I did when I faced the nematodes and could not get levimisole right away. I isolated a dying fish, experimented, and found a treatment. It worked (it is a little bizarre to explain in public, but the fish is still alive today somehow).

All right. Let me TRY watching them a bit more. I guess I'll have to go with Maracyn2 again with the first sign of trouble and kill everyone this time.

[mikev]

Jim, could I ask to check the pictures below?

There is one suspicious fish, Beaufortia. I'm not sure if I'm seeing ghosts here or not. The circle on the face is not visible in most cases; when I removed the fish for closer examination (2nd picture) I could not see anything at all.

I first noticed this Tue night, 24 hours after moving Chenis, when I carefully examined all the fish. On a couple of subsequent examinations I saw it again, but mostly did not.

Logically this should not be a "disease patch": I cannot understand how treated Chenis could bring enough infection to make this fish show symptomes within 24 hours (and stay fine themselves)....

What is your feeling about it?



And I can see it only if I look straight on the face, a sideview shows nothing:

[Jim Powers]

Its really hard to tell for the pics. It does look a little suspicious, though. I would just keep an eye on it and see if it spreads or gets lighter. It may be nothing at all. Also, see if the fish is becoming less active or not feeding or even not sticking to the glass well. Increased respiration level is something else to look for.
The important thing is just stay calm and don't do anything impulsive as far a treatment goes until you confirm that is, in fact, a problem.

[mikev]

Thanks, Jim,

I'm doing exactly this -- watching it. It sticks to the glass almost all the time (changing the position like others), and I've never seen any larger beafortia's eating. Seeing it in person does not help -- half the time it looks totally normal (and it is not just me who looked at it )

If the situation changes I'll try asking you before doing anything drastic.

I did some research on the topics related to this disease and meds and now have some preliminary answers (guesses) as to what is going on.

One is the *likely* cause for my current nitrIte spike: I've been also treating for Ich (which -- unlike the patchy disease -- was not a suspicion). It was reported that Maracyn's do wipe out the biofilter in combination with some other drugs, and two of the other drugs I've used could have conflicted with Maracyn's. Next time you recommend anti-patch treatment, I strongly suggest you mentioning this. Of course, if you know for sure that it is Maracyn2 that works, I'd urge you to promote the one-drug treatment, at least for the symptomeless cases..


It also so happens that if one believes that the beafortia could not develop the disease within 24 hours but actually has it, we may have an id on the bacteria, and alternative cures.