Butterfly/hillstream loach keeps sliding down the glass

[Gary Herring]

Its definately a Beaufortia, either Leveretti or Kweichowensis.

Ok, so you've decided to try to ride out the cycling period and hope for the best. Thats your decision (albeit the wrong one,IMHO) and i hope it works out ok. Just a couple of points though:

I did a partial water change and ammonia and nitrites are at 0

Not possible. If your nitrites were 2 and you did, say, a 25% water change, nitrites would then be 1.5. The only way to completely eradicate them instantly would be to change 100% of the water. But please DONT do this, you'll be back at square 1. CHANGE 40% A DAY, everyday, untill your reading is zero.

I have used cycle nitrifier to assist cycling

This is up for debate, but most people (myself included) would regard this type of product as completely useless and a waste of money. Great in theory, but in reality i cant see how nitrifying bacteria (which rely on a constant source of oxygen to survive) can remain alive and beneficial in a bottle for months on end. Thats just my opinion, and using it wont do any harm but results, at best, will be minimal. Cycling takes time, and the one and only shortcut is to implant some media from a MATURE filter into yours, but even then, results are not instantanious.

Its a very slow slide, is this normal?

No. Definatly not in my experience with this species anyway.

The first one has been doing great

How do you mean? Is it active and food searching (ie grazing the glass and rockwork) most of the time? Healthy hillstreams are on the move searching for food for probably 50% - 80% of the day. Remember its never usually obvious when all is not right, as unfortunatly fish cannot tell us when they are in pain.

Good luck!

[Desi]

Just for clarification, I don't really have experience with these so I don't have opinion. He/She said the nitrITE was .1 and NitrATE was 2.

[mikev]

Just for clarification, I don't really have experience with these so I don't have opinion. He/She said the nitrITE was .1 and NitrATE was 2.

He/She also said Ammonia at .5, and a single water change is not likely to cure it. NitrIte going from 0.1 to 0.0 is possible, the test kits are not very exact, but it will come back up before long.

[Tonii]

I guess then that they are 2 different species of beauforia. Since those readings there have been a couple water changes a 20% and a 40-45%.

The nitrites were at between 0.1 and 0.2 before the water changes and the ammonia between 0.25 and 0.5 before the water changes (both of which is very little change in color and didn't take much to fix.)

I have noticed it doesn't slide always, sometimes stays still for quite awhile which suggests it does have the ability when it wants to. It's not like it can't stay on the glass or is stuggling or anything. You wouldn't even notice it if you weren't watching closely.

Yes, they are both active and constantly sucking on and searching the glass.

My question is that the loach was already like this (sliding a bit) WHEN I GOT IT yesterday and if something is wrong with it I can take it back and get another one. I just don't know if this sometimes sliding this is a problem or nothing to worry about.

[mikev]

My question is that the loach was already like this (sliding a bit) WHEN I GOT IT yesterday and if something is wrong with it I can take it back and get another one. I just don't know if this sometimes sliding this is a problem or nothing to worry about.

The best things would be to take it back but instead of getting another one get a store credit (or put the loach on hold at the store if you can). Don't get a replacement until your tank is functional, and this will take days.

From everything you are saying it is likely that the current zero reading will change to non-zero in a few hours.

[Tonii]

Thank you all for your advice and opinions. They are very much appreciated. You have given me a lot of info re tanks etc. What I really want to know is "Do you think I bought a defective loach or not?"

[Jim Powers]

The only time I have seen this "sliding" behaviour in hillstreams was in a Sinogastromyzon wui with a bacterial infection that also caused loss of color in patches. The fish seemed to be weaked by the infection, and could therefore not hold on to the glass as it did when healthy. The fish did survive treatment with Maracyn 1&2 and is about 4-5 years old now.That's old for a hillstream.
One of the most devastating disease that infects hillstreams seems to be this kind of bacterial infection. Other conditions, however, could also cause this.
The bottom line is be very careful when choosing hillstreams and quarentine if you can. About the only time you see this infection in hillstreams is in newly imported fish in pet stores. Bringing them home and putting them in an established tank can have terrible consequences.
Good Luck!!!

[Tonii]

oh no! Could it be that that is the problem? The color on the head is a little patchy, I thought it was just a different species. I put it in my tank already! If I take it out now, what can I do to keep the others healthy, maracyn the tank?

[Jim Powers]

I would only use Maracyn 2 and maybe Maracyn and treat for 5-10 days to be on the safe side. Be sure to moniter water quality.
check out this link http://www.loaches.com/hillstream_disease.html
Good luck!!

[mikev]

Jim,

Is there a chance you could tell us a little more about the "patchy disease"?

Specifically, do you have any knowledge/opinion on:
1. Is it hillstrem specific?
2. Is it limited to some species?
3. What is the approx time from infection to death assuming no treatment?
4. What is the approx time from infection to symptomes assuming no treatment?
5. Any other symptomes?

The reason for asking is that I hit some real difficulties here, and while they are not this disease---I hope---patching is something I need to keep in mind due to what I already know about this fish source... (I already made one very bad decision based on incomplete info on this thing...)

TIA

[Martin Thoene]

I see patchiness even at the size of the avatar. Definitely not good.

Hillstreams stick to surfaces by suction caused by creating a vacuum under the body. I too have seen diseased fish slide down the glass as if their weakness prevents them creating the muscular tension required to seal themselves to a surface. The slide is fairly noticeable, not exactly as you describe. Most movement on glass is obviously intentional, usually a shiffling movement, so I would tend to be worried by this fish.

The other advice I would agree with wholeheartedly. Don't keep Hillstreams with Goldfish.

Goldfish are carp. Carp have high affinity haemoglobin and can live in low oxygen content water. Hillstreams have low affinity haemoglobin and cannot survive in low oxygen levels or less than perfect water conditions. Goldfish are high level excreters and it's easy for a tank to get polluted.

Horses for courses.

Martin.

[Jim Powers]

mikev, the time to onset and death varies from fish to fish and I don't know if its hillstream specific. Generally it seems that the more patchy the color, the closer to death. I have seen some die without patchy color, though.
The sucker belly types seem more sensitive to this disease than do the lizard fish types, but both can die from this. L. disapris are an exception.
Regular fully scaled fish such as white clouds seem much more resistant than hillstreams.
Other symptoms are loss of suction, loss of appetite, heavy breathing, and excessive hiding. Infected fish may not exhibit all symptoms.
Unless we could culture the bacteria responsible, we can't be sure the infection is caused by only one bacterial strain.

[mikev]

Jim, thanks a lot. This gives me a little to go on.

Two more questions if you don't mind:

Your recommendation of Maracyn2 above -- is it because you know that it is Maracyn2 that is more effective, or because Maracyn2 does not destroy the tank cycle as badly as Maracyn does?

Do you think it is possible for new infection symptomes (patches) to appear within less than 24 hours?

APPEND. Sorry, one more:

Do you know if this affects chenis? Assuming you expose twenty chenis to this infection, do you think it is likely that they will all be problem-free in say ten days?

[Tonii]

I have gotten rid of that particular hillstream. Now in order to keep my original one healthy and symptom free, do you suggest I treat the tank with maracyn (which I have) or should I go out and get maracyn 2 and use it (or both?)?

[Jim Powers]

mikev: I think Maracyn 2 is more effective for this infection and seems to have less effect on the biofilter. Maracyn was mainly used to prevent a secondary infection and make sure that a broad variety of pathogens were killed.
I suppose it is possible for patches to appear that quickly.

Tonii: I would definately use Maracyn 2. If you want to add Maracyn that's okay, but Maracyn 2 is the most important drug to use.