Loaches: Wedged, Stuck, and Pinned

[oilhands]

Hey everyone. I'm new to the loaches.com forums.

I have two 3.5" Yo-yo loaches which I have had for about three years. After checking out the info about the other species of botia I picked up three juvenile (1.5") Clown Loaches. I'm hoping to pick up three more Yo-yo loaches in the next few weeks.

These guys have just been a blast. I love their antics and really enjoy watching them play.

My question arises from a small problem I have encountered, first with the yo-yo loaches and now with the clown loaches. How worked up should I get about these guys wedging and pinning themselves until they are completely stuck? I realize I need to "rescue" them when this happens but I wonder about the lingering effects on their health.

When the yo-yo loaches were younger one of them would consistently bury herself under the loose gravel when I was deep vacuuming the aquarium and disturbing the gravel. I would then spend 20 minutes after the water change peering up at the bottom of the tank with my head inside the aquarium stand until I could locate and free her. To be clear, there was no way she would have ever been able to free herself without human intervention. Now that she is 3.5" long, and I take extra care knowing her behavior, it is much harder for me to lose her in the gravel, under rocks, etc.

Now I find that one of the young clown loaches apparently likes to get stuck as well. I have had to rescue him and/or her three times in two weeks. Once pinned against an in tank filter, once in a commercially purchased PVC cave, and once under a clay pot. In all three cases the offending object has acted like a 'loach motel'. Loaches go in but the don't come out. I have attempted to mitigate the problem by recognizing the behavoir and adjusting the aquarium environment in such a way that the likelyhood of further wedging and pinning is reduced. However, I can all to easily see this happening again.

Things I worry about: how long were they trapped? I just happened to notice it, but it could have been for hours. Does it matter as long as they are still alive? They started swimming after the rescue...are they really OK?

They are currently doing well and I haven't seen any long term health problems with the female yo-yo, but I still am a bit concerned. Any information which might help me keep these interesting and enjoyable botia healthy and happy would be great.

[Emma Turner]

Hi oilhands, welcome to Loaches Online.

This may seem like a daft question, but have you ever observed the tank for a while after lights out? Usually if a loach can squeeze in somewhere, it can get back out again. Being nocturnal, I wonder if they are hiding for the best part of the day and then coming out in the darkness. Obviously sometimes fish can truly become stuck, and if you suspect this is going to occur again and again, you really need to think about removing the 'offending' bit of decor from the tank and using something safer. PVC tubes, although not natural-looking are always welcomed and are open at both ends, so there is little chance of any problems occuring there. Pieces of bogwood (checked beforehand to make sure there are no holes the fish could become wedged in) are good too. If the fish are becoming stuck against filters or even getting into the filters, then you'll need to address that, at least whilst the fish are so small. If you tell us what filter etc you have in the tank, maybe someone will be able to advise on how to prevent them getting stuck against/in that particular model - coarse sponges and even stockings (pantyhose) are often used for this sort of thing.

Emma

[oilhands]

Hi oilhands, welcome to Loaches Online.

This may seem like a daft question, but have you ever observed the tank for a while after lights out? Usually if a loach can squeeze in somewhere, it can get back out again. Being nocturnal, I wonder if they are hiding for the best part of the day and then coming out in the darkness. Obviously sometimes fish can truly become stuck, and if you suspect this is going to occur again and again, you really need to think about removing the 'offending' bit of decor from the tank and using something safer. PVC tubes, although not natural-looking are always welcomed and are open at both ends, so there is little chance of any problems occuring there. Pieces of bogwood (checked beforehand to make sure there are no holes the fish could become wedged in) are good too. If the fish are becoming stuck against filters or even getting into the filters, then you'll need to address that, at least whilst the fish are so small. If you tell us what filter etc you have in the tank, maybe someone will be able to advise on how to prevent them getting stuck against/in that particular model - coarse sponges and even stockings (pantyhose) are often used for this sort of thing.

Emma

They are not hiding rather they are 100% completey stuck. While midday is a low point of activity all of my loaches rip around the tank and are mostly active during daylight hours. I have built custom PVC caves which are used as well as clay pots which have the bottoms removed. For some reason the new little clowns like to hang out behind, under, and next to the filter (Fluval 4 Plus In Tank Aquarium Filter) rather than in the structures I have provided for that purpose.

I removed the offending PVC cave since it has nooks which can trap them. I moved the filter housing away from the corner where they were getting pinned. This is basically a size problem. Once the little ones are a bit bigger it should become less of a concern overall. So, I'm basically wondering about the stress level and any health implications, if any, should this happen again.

Thanks.

[YoyoGirl]

Oil hands! If you've got hang on the back style filters you can put filter sponge over the intake to keep the loaches from being able to get in or even really close to it. I use this in my fry and grow out tanks often.

Also aquarium safe silicon is your friend. You can use it to fill in little nooks they might get into.

That said this is really normal behavior for some types of fish (especially Yoyos I've read). I make little rock piles for mine so they can get their hiding fix in places where I know they can't get stuck. Again a bit of aquarium safe silicon or some aquarium safe apoxy and you can build some really nice little stacks of stones that have no nooks that will trap them.

The trick seems to be making them feel like they're hiding but designing the pile in such a way that you can see in from all sides.

[tender]

I have to agree with Emma. How do you know the loach is stuck? These creatures can squeze in to holes you wouldn`t think physically possible. However; if they get in, the will most of the time get out

[oilhands]

I have to agree with Emma. How do you know the loach is stuck? These creatures can squeze in to holes you wouldn`t think physically possible. However; if they get in, the will most of the time get out

With the yo-yo loach (3 yrs ago now) she would move right under the rocks I was moving while using the vacuum.

After seeing her daily before the first deep gravel cleaning water change I found her absent from the tank. My son and I did a 100% area search of the tank from all sides. Nothing. No bodies anywhere around the tank. The stand had no wood in the way of the glass bottom so I grabbed a high power flashlight. I rested the back of my head inside the stand and rested my back on the floor. Using the flashlight I scanned the bottom of the tank. After looking for what seemed like a long time I found her pinned and twitching occasionally. She was under a mix of gravel and somewhat heavier stones which had been disturbed during the previous day's vacuuming. I freed her carefully from her prison and she shot out as if fired from a gun. She was ghostly pale and basically freaked out. It only happened one more time and she was pinned for no more than 10 minutes. Prior to release from a near gravel/rock grave I could see her through the tank's bottom glass twitching and freaking out. Again, ghostly pale and freaked out after release. So, like I said, I'm pretty sure she was 100% stuck.

I blame myself, of course, since she was just doing what is in her nature to do. I failed to understand her behavoir and I figure she almost died a couple times before I rehomed them in a proper sized tank with proper gravel specifically for them.

The new clown loaches however are currently smaller than the yo-yo loaches. I'm going to assume you understand I know what stuck is and spare you their recent harrowing near death experiences. So, any advice on gauging the impact of these hopfully never happening again experinces?

[oilhands]

Oil hands! If you've got hang on the back style filters you can put filter sponge over the intake to keep the loaches from being able to get in or even really close to it. I use this in my fry and grow out tanks often.

Also aquarium safe silicon is your friend. You can use it to fill in little nooks they might get into.

That said this is really normal behavior for some types of fish (especially Yoyos I've read). I make little rock piles for mine so they can get their hiding fix in places where I know they can't get stuck. Again a bit of aquarium safe silicon or some aquarium safe apoxy and you can build some really nice little stacks of stones that have no nooks that will trap them.

The trick seems to be making them feel like they're hiding but designing the pile in such a way that you can see in from all sides.

Thanks for the hints. The yo-yo loaches have recently been experiencing major lifestyle upgrades thanks in large part to the loaches.com website and forum. Frankly, I have been woefully ignorant of the requirements of these fish. They have always had plenty of space, clean water, and a good mix of food, but until recently they never had an abundance of sheltered refuges within the aquarium.

I have recently added clay pots with the bottoms knocked out and the edges filed smooth. I also created two PVC plumbing caves. Indeed, silicone and some gravel helped make them look fairly attractive. These have been arranged within the aquarim to provide them with places to hide. Also, I have recently introduced some live plants (rooted and floating) to provide addition shade and structure.

The most recent near death experience involved the new clown loaches and a commerically available plastic cave whose smaller brother nearly killed a rosy barb a few years back. This thing turned out to be an unfixable death trap for these youngsters and has been removed.

[tender]

I'm going to assume you understand I know what stuck is and spare you their recent harrowing near death experiences. So, any advice on gauging the impact of these hopfully never happening again experinces?

By all means I`m not hinting that you don`t know what stuck is. But it seems to me that you presume youre loaches are stuck, quite often. And that leads me to believe that maybe you think youre loaches are stuck, more often than not. I think most of us have feared that our loaches have been stuck, when in fact they have just acted quite normally. No offence

[Diana]

I have seen Loaches trying to hide. Not scared, just wedging themselves into whatever hole appeals to them, and these fish are normally colored, and can move away whenever they want (such as at feeding time).

Problems that result from being really stuck:

The surface they are stuck against may not be smooth. Results in skin damage or deeper injuries.
Gravel, even rounded, is a lumpy surface, and some surfaces are sharp, could cut the fish, especially if they get desperate and fight their way out.

There may not be as much water flow in the stuck-place. Low Oxygen, higher CO2, ultimately death.

Cannot get out to get food.

You don't know they are there and damage them with the gravel vac. (This is my own worry, I have quite a few burrowing fish. Answer: densely plant the tank, and do not vacuum)

Couple of fish get stuck together, get desperate and use their eye-spines. (Or, in the case of many catfish, the spines in their fins)

Safest caves are not tubes, but half-cylinders, partially buried in sand.
PVC tubes with no fittings, just a tube, but make sure it is bigger than the largest fish. Coconut caves. An arching branch of driftwood, or a couple of them. Gravel can trap the littler fish.

[oilhands]

I'm going to assume you understand I know what stuck is and spare you their recent harrowing near death experiences. So, any advice on gauging the impact of these hopfully never happening again experinces?

By all means I`m not hinting that you don`t know what stuck is. But it seems to me that you presume youre loaches are stuck, quite often. And that leads me to believe that maybe you think youre loaches are stuck, more often than not. I think most of us have feared that our loaches have been stuck, when in fact they have just acted quite normally. No offence

No problem. It took me a year or two to figure out that "playing possum" was just something I'd have to get use to. These instances, on the other hand, are extremely stressful for the fish and so I'm doing my best to adapt the aquarium to mitigate the problem and find out any information I can about dealing with the effects. Thanks.

[oilhands]

I have seen Loaches trying to hide. Not scared, just wedging themselves into whatever hole appeals to them, and these fish are normally colored, and can move away whenever they want (such as at feeding time).

Problems that result from being really stuck:

The surface they are stuck against may not be smooth. Results in skin damage or deeper injuries.
Gravel, even rounded, is a lumpy surface, and some surfaces are sharp, could cut the fish, especially if they get desperate and fight their way out.

There may not be as much water flow in the stuck-place. Low Oxygen, higher CO2, ultimately death.

Cannot get out to get food.

You don't know they are there and damage them with the gravel vac. (This is my own worry, I have quite a few burrowing fish. Answer: densely plant the tank, and do not vacuum)

Couple of fish get stuck together, get desperate and use their eye-spines. (Or, in the case of many catfish, the spines in their fins)

Safest caves are not tubes, but half-cylinders, partially buried in sand.
PVC tubes with no fittings, just a tube, but make sure it is bigger than the largest fish. Coconut caves. An arching branch of driftwood, or a couple of them. Gravel can trap the littler fish.

Thanks. Sounds like some great tips.

If skin damage is likely in these cases would it make sense to dose the tank with some stress coat? Would moving them to a hospital tank be a no-brainer if you can see actually skin problems? Is leaving the tank and being alone more stress than would be reasonable? I've just setup my first hospital/quarantine tank after an Ich issue so it is something I could do if I ever needed.

Again, thanks for info.

[Diana]

If you are keeping the main tank in good condition, with the lowest possible nitrates (under 20 ppm for sure, under 10 ppm if at all possible) then minor scrapes will heal just fine in that tank, whereas the stress of capture and moving the fish would be worse.
If the fish has been injured worse, for example is having a hard time getting around, and is always out of the feeding frenzy I would put this fish in a hospital tank.

A little stress coat might be indicated in either case.
Something that slows the growth of bacteria and fungi may help, too. Melafix and Pimafix have worked for me, but some people have had problems with these medicines, and I would not use them with a Labyrinth fish.

[oilhands]

If you are keeping the main tank in good condition, with the lowest possible nitrates (under 20 ppm for sure, under 10 ppm if at all possible) then minor scrapes will heal just fine in that tank, whereas the stress of capture and moving the fish would be worse.
If the fish has been injured worse, for example is having a hard time getting around, and is always out of the feeding frenzy I would put this fish in a hospital tank.

A little stress coat might be indicated in either case.
Something that slows the growth of bacteria and fungi may help, too. Melafix and Pimafix have worked for me, but some people have had problems with these medicines, and I would not use them with a Labyrinth fish.

Thanks a bunch. This is just the kind of info I was hoping for when I posted my request. You have been a great help.

[andyroo]

I didn't read everyone's responses but:
there have been a number of RIP postings on this list due to loaches, particularly older clowns, getting stuck and giving up the ghost. Not to make one paranoid, but something to keep in mind. All the hidey-holes i've set up are either gravel-backed/bottomed or a little too big. i worry a bit about the ones i've not consciously set up or that they have dug out.

Just because i'm paranoid doesn't mean there isn't anybody out to get me.
(i know i'm re-using this ol' chestnut)

A